Rearing... sigh... Bitless bridle?

[butlerfamilyzoo]

I took in a horse for training for a friend of mine. She hasnt ridden in a couple years, this horse has sat for well over a year... I didnt know much about the mare at all when they brought her, but as she was leaving, she happened to mention... "Oh, i think i forgot to tell you, the previous owner sold her to us because she started rearing, but we've had her for years without her ever doing it..."

Mind you, the horse has only been used as a walk MAYBE trot trail horse with total beginners on her...

I'm real quick to say rearing is a NASTY habit that i have never been skilled enough to figure out how to stop a horse from doing once they start and would not have taken this horse had i known this...

Day one... Monday... Horse went nice and soft and i finished wondering why on earth they sent the horse to me for a month and why they didnt just hop on themselves... It was windy as all get out, cooler with a cold front moving in, but still she did super... i just did some light walk/trot with her and quit after about 20min as she was so good. Came light and soft on the bit, etc...

Yesterday she had off as the cold front was COLD and it was still windy, a bit beyond what i wanted to ride in!

So today, pull her out, get to the arena, go to mount... She wont stand still. So we work on that for 20min, nothing ugly, just wanted to back up two steps when i put my foot in the stirrup from the mounting block. Get on, stand there a few minutes, praise her and ask her to walk forward, she dropped her head to her knees and arched her back, thought about bucking, but i pushed her on... After walking a lap around the ring i asked her for a little more contact with the bit, that was it... Kept pulling on my hands, putting her head in the air, wanted to trot off, then argued with her head higher when i said no...

I didnt want to fight, so i got off, grabbed the longe line, longed, everything fine, got back on. Still acting silly... Got back off, put her in VERY loose sliding side reins (or vienna reins depending what barn you are in), figured that would give a little more than just regular side reins... had her walk a minute to get used to it, no problem, trot, a little fussy, but ok, did that both ways until she was quiet and good... Asked for a canter next, BIG blow up, rear, flipped over backwards (me cringing as my saddle hits the dirt... sigh) mind you, sliders were LOOSE, as in she would have to put her nose UP to find contact... So we go back to walk/trot WITHOUT the sliders, and she continues doing this for a while, though didnt flip over again thank goodness... But kept sticking her nose out searching for the bit to put pressure...

Finally, she calmed down, so i got back on, stood nice and still while i mounted, walked on calmly, asked for a little trot, nice and slow, big loose rein, let the reins slide threw my fingers when she was searching for contact, didnt give her one excuse period to rear and it went ok...

BUT... How do i start adding contact without rearing?

She reminds me of a horse i bought "screwed up" when i was younger, western horse, started with a curb WAY too early (previous owner), broke his jaw... He did this same thing, looked for any pressure and would rear and flip if he found it. I had him 2yrs, never fixed it.

Now they have those nice bitless bridles and i'm wondering if that might work on this girl. She doesnt need to go in the show ring, just do a quiet walk/trot/canter. Maybe if no bit, she wont flip?

Vet did her teeth last week, so we know thats not the problem, i requested she get a full check up before she comes since she's sat so long... Doesnt apear to be saddle fit, only bit related. I've got a nice fat french link loose ring in her mouth with the oval center.

Any ideas? (If it were my horse, it would find a companion horse home or put it down, i HATE horses that rear, i'll take one that bucks all day long, rear and its gone...)

[alliekat]

My first instinct is her teeth. Even though the vet just did them it might be worth it to have an equine dentist out instead.
I went thru the same thing with a TB mare we once had. She was so good when I started her, even let my mom ride her around, and then a few days later she started to rear and flip. She had just had her teeth floated by the vet of her previous owner. Different Dentist found part of her wolf tooth still left inside!!!
Once removed she was a differnt horse and has now gone on to win many races at the track.
A second opinion never hurts. Good luck and be careful.

[slc2]

Sorry, but send the horse to someone else. You're out of your depth.

You can't dismount when things like that happen.

[whicker]

I agree with slc. If she is that upset, there is something physically going on. i have a horse that was flipped at the trainer and he hasn't been the same. after many years, I found Janek Vluggen, dutch osteopath, who was able to fix a number of the issues. My vet Jeannie Waldron found a bursa just behind his poll that was damaged. she worked on it and we are going to try again this spring when it gets hotter. He will do anything for me on voice commands and clicker training. Please be careful.

[Tomw]

Sorry, but send the horse to someone else. You're out of your depth.

i think thats good advice, but if your not going to i'll try to give some help.

i do alot of problem horse work i love it it is the most rewarding thing in the world. i've ridden alot of horses no one else will, ive had 2 that do what you've described, what she dose is not rearing, i dont mind rearers (much prefer them to buckers as they wreck my back) what she dose is flipping it is the most dangerous thing a horse can do! one of the ones i did i fixed completly, the other never quite, i took my life in my hands to ride him cos i loved him deeply and he was the most amazing horse ive ever sat on, but i had made a contious decision that i was willing to give my life to have the thrill of riding this magniicent horse.

ok no 1) DO NOT GET ON THIS HORSE UNTILL YOU CAN LUNGE HER CALMLY AND CORECTLY IN ALL 3 PACES IN CORECTLY AJUSTED SIDE REINS AND BE SURE OF HER NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG THROUGH TRANSITIONS. i a profesional with lots of problem horse expirence and no dependents! would not sit on this horse till that was achived, so YOU certainly shouldnt.

2) get her back checked!!! may be a problem there!

3) she has to learn to calmly atomaticaly go forward from the leg, voice, lunge whip. the best advice i was ever given was from my ex boss mark todd, he said there is nothing wrong with rearing, bucking, napping ect the only problem is going forward cos if a horse goes forward off your leg when asked it cant rear it cant nap it cant buck dangerously (well unless it is the most increadably athletic animal!). he's right ive never had a horse that was submisive to my leg that did anything malicious.

4) if she is good and works well stop!!! loads of praise and finish, the most productive sesions you will have with your horse are the ones when you achive all your aims in 5 mins! and finish, if you get a few of them she'll start to love her work and work for you not against you!

if you decide to keep going with her good luck and if you want any more help feel free to msg me, i could go in to pages of detail on how i would lunge a horse like this and the excercises i would do, but dont want to bore everyone on here!!! lmao!!

[Evntr4Life]

try lone lineing her. A friends mare had a rearing problem, anytime there was to much contact she would sully up and rear. instead of trying to fix it while riding her we started on the ground, long lining her and anytime she would threaten to rear we would ask her to move forward again. It was a lot easier to keep her infront of our "leg" on the ground and it was a lot less dangerous than having a rider on her.

[Jealoushe]

I would never throw side reins on a horse that has been out of work for a year and lunge her. That horse needs at least 3 weeks of just WALKING to build fitness and endurance. I'm not surprised she flipped over when you asked her to canter on a lunge with sidereins.

Once she's fit I suggest moving FORWARD, forward, forward. Once she is moving well off your leg you can take contact but don't worry about her headset until she has more strength.

[whicker]

I sent PM

[butlerfamilyzoo]

I feel like i'm in a tough spot with the owner. Trainers in the area are way over her budget, the one i would love to send her to charges $275 a week. If i send the mare home, i'm worried the owner or one of her other beginner friends will get on and get seriously hurt... At the same time, "I" do not want to get hurt.

Had i of known there was this issue, i would not have taken her and 99% of me wants to haul her home today! But that 1% says give it a week.

Owner does not have all the money in the world to try and get this mare medically figured out. I wish she did. I think there is an issue in her mouth. Be it something left of a wolf tooth in there under the gum line, a fractured jaw, something that isnt visible to the eye. I do not feel it is in her back, neck, or poll. She's acts too much like the horse i had with the broken jaw.

This mare has had ground work out the wazoo. Its all the owner has done with her the past couple years. This mare drives, cart and all! Goes perfect off voice command. Longes perfect (without my side reins...) She is sweet as can be with perfect ground manners. There is nothing "mean" about her rear/flip, its PANIC. But emediately after, she is back to sweet and fine, not wide eyed, breathing heavy, nothing.

She has NOT reared with me on her back. She's been a little fussy with her face, but if she pushes her nose out to look for contact or pain, i let the reins thread threw my fingers and dont let her find it, so she emediately comes back down and moves on. Goes super off my leg.

The only time she has reared is with the side reins, and again, they were SUPER loose.

My main question here is about trying a bitless bridle on her, get rid of the bit altogether and see if maybe there is no pain in her mouth from whatever is bugging her in there, if she gets fussy, or rears in the side reins.

The fact that she drives wonderfully makes me think back pain, but the reaction seems bit related. Now, when she drives, she's allowed to bepop along with her nose out in the air... No overcheck or anything. So i would be curious if more contact was asked for, if she would rear and flip with the cart... NOT something i would ever try knowing what "could" happen... But supposedly, she's never reared with a cart.

[Bogie]

I am not sure that your problem is with the bit per se, so going bitless isn't going to help. In fact, depending on the type of bitless bridle used, it might make it worse. Bitless bridles that use a cross-under design (like the Dr. Cook's), put pressure on the horse's poll. Some horses (mine was one) find this very objectionable and rear as a response.

I agree with those who say to look for a physical cause first. I knew someone who had a horse that was fine on a loose rein or a "training level" frame but which went ballistic over more contact. Turned out the horse had problems with the vertabrae in its neck.

My own horse had no physical problem but would get very anxious if he felt "trapped." He had been schooled in draw reins by someone who did not have the experience to use them. He started to rear and then had that habit reinforced when his owner would get off. It took me a long time to 1) understand the cause of the problem and then 2) to fix it. I worked with an excellent vet and a very experienced trainer.

A horse that will flip over has no self-preservation gene. I would be very hesitant to ride it. My horse used rearing as an evasion but never went high enough to come close to flipping.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

J- this mare is not that out of shape. She has not been ridden in over a year, but has been worked in the round pen and driven. She was sent to me as the owner wanted a refresher done on her under saddle before starting to ride her again. I only took her for 30 days knowing she's been longed and driven, otherwise, i would have required a much longer time frame for her and be going much slower like you advise. So no, this is not a reaction due to being unfit... Trust me, she felt good enough to hike her tail up and go flying around my 6 acres when i turned her loose after her work-out yesterday!

[butlerfamilyzoo]

I am not sure that your problem is with the bit per se, so going bitless isn't going to help. In fact, depending on the type of bitless bridle used, it might make it worse.

A horse that will flip over has no self-preservation gene. I would be very hesitant to ride it. My horse used rearing as an evasion but never went high enough to come close to flipping.

Both very good points. I'm going to have a long talk with the owner today and see what she can afford to do in the way of having a good physical done of this mare.

[merrygoround]

I think you are dealing with something that is beyond your capabilities.
There are horses out there that must be ridden from behind, that will not accept contact unless it is very, very light and soft.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

There are horses out there that must be ridden from behind, that will not accept contact unless it is very, very light and soft.

If this is the case, why does she not rear while being driven?

My "contact" with her is very light side to side only to turn. She's never been taught to turn off the seat/leg. I'm giving seat/leg signals so that she can learn those, but i'm leaving the face alone, loose hanging rein, nose out in the air... By no means am i asking for true contact, i'm just trying to softly steer without running into my arena sides...

I'm not arguing that the mare is above my capabilities. I've already stated i dont deal with horses that rear like this and would not have taken her if i knew this previously. Personally, anyone who says this horse is within their capabilities has a death wish...

The fact that she has not done it under saddle (yet) and is so nice and sweet and wants to please is really the only reason why i'm trying to figure out some other ideas to try with her. I do not want to see her in the hands of the other cheap cowboy trainers in the area.

I've called the owner and she's coming by tonight to talk about her. I'm hoping she can scrounge up some extra funds to have a more thorough exam done on her and see if we can find a cause physically. Otherwise, i think i'll be packing her bags and sending her home.

I quit training for others several years ago after losing some "friends" by putting their horses well being first. I should never have taken this horse on, and again, would not have if i had known there was this issue... I hope i do not lose another friend, but it is not worth my life!

[FancyFree]

try lone lineing her. A friends mare had a rearing problem, anytime there was to much contact she would sully up and rear. instead of trying to fix it while riding her we started on the ground, long lining her and anytime she would threaten to rear we would ask her to move forward again. It was a lot easier to keep her infront of our "leg" on the ground and it was a lot less dangerous than having a rider on her.

I agree. First have a complete physical to rule out any pain issues. Do you have any resources on long-lining? I bought a great book awhile ago, it's actually more of a flip notebook, by Cherry Hill. Here's a link:

http://www.amazon.com/Longeing-Longl...289047&sr=1-10

[PiaffeDreams]

I feel like i'm in a tough spot with the owner. Trainers in the area are way over her budget, the one i would love to send her to charges $275 a week. If i send the mare home, i'm worried the owner or one of her other beginner friends will get on and get seriously hurt... At the same time, "I" do not want to get hurt.

Had i of known there was this issue, i would not have taken her and 99% of me wants to haul her home today! But that 1% says give it a week.

I'm saying this nicely and in a supportive way, really.

Its not YOUR horse! Its not your responsibility to worry about the owner or their friends getting hurt. That is the OWNERS job and if the owner were to make that choice its all them. Do not worry the least about offending the owner either by putting it all on the line. Be professional about it. They are paying you for your experience, knowledge and opinion even if they don't like it. Tell them what you see, what you think and what you are concerned about and then politely tell them that you think the needs of the horse would be best suited with someone different... if that's the case. If you want to continue with the horse, give them your strategy and your timeline. If they don't like it too bad. Its YOUR service they are paying for and YOU get to outline it. That is why there are different trainers. If they like someone else's strategy and timeline better they are welcome to give it a try.

[sm]

Vet did her teeth last week, so we know thats not the problem

You need a dentist, not a vet. A vet is a general practitioner only, not a specialist and in most cases doesn't even have the tools/eqiup a dentist has. An equine dentist could tell you many things they fixed after vets...

If you're thinking of putting a horse down for rearing, shame on you. It's a trainer issue. The horse is communicating in the only way it knows how, so either figure it out or send the horse to someone who can.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

If you're thinking of putting a horse down for rearing, shame on you.

Ouch, thats a bit harsh!

IN MY OPINION ONLY of course! I would rather put a horse down than pass off a dangerous horse to someone else to get hurt. I've seen that happen twice, one a lovely very tallented imported Han gelding, meanest thing i've ever met, threw the trainer into the arena wall just being downright ugly. I swear his eyes turned red! Ok, maybe not, but it was an ugly horse. She took the loss and gave the horse away. Its new "qualified" owner was in the hospital in under a month and the horse put down. New owner never rode again.

My second horse was bought at an auction when i was at the wonderful age of 12. It was drugged though a vet passed it off as fine. Drugs wore off, horse suffered from MAJOR abuse issues. He used to rear and flip. I would tell my mom where i was riding to that day as i had lots of trails within riding distance, and if the horse came home before me, she would know where to start looking... That sounds terrible, but it was a daily thing. Everyone around would say, well there goes Kayla's horse down the road again... Every time he always made it home without me or any other horse. Doesnt matter if i rode out with friends, he would leave and run home. In two years, i was riding him walk/trot/canter bareback... He was lovely. But by no means was that rearing and flipping gone, it could disapear for a long time, but show up when you least expected it. My parents finally made me sell him as he about plowed my brother over (who at the time was 4 and shouldnt have been where he was, but those things happen when you leave a 4yr old out with an older sister who wished he wasnt born... )

Anyway, i screened everyone as carefully as a 14yr old before internet could... His new owner took him trail riding at Shawnee in IL, broke a few ribs and his collar bone... He had him a few months by that point.

Horse was sold to a kill buyer.

How i wish i had had the balls to put that horse down. Today, i would have.

There is nothing mean or bad about humanely putting a horse down if there is a dangerous issue that you cant fix and the horse could kill someone. I would do the same to a dog who bites someone.

You can all feel free to disagree with me. I'm a big girl. No matter how much i love horses, not a single one of them is worth getting killed over!

[Ambrey]

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thing. Have you checked her teeth and mouth? A friend has a horse who had a head tossing/light in front problem really exacerbated by heavy contact causing a sore mouth (they were also using draw reins and a short martingale).

The only way she goes nicely is in a large diameter bit with very gentle hands- moderate contact is ok, but any twitchiness causes immediate reaction. The vet confirmed the mouth issues and life has been much better.

[Bogie]

If you're thinking of putting a horse down for rearing, shame on you. It's a trainer issue. The horse is communicating in the only way it knows how, so either figure it out or send the horse to someone who can.

Far better to have the horse put down than have it continue to be sold to unknowing and innocent parties who may be hurt.

I have a friend who bought a beautiful horse for her 13 or 14 year old daughter from a dealer. Shortly after the horse arrived at her barn someone came in looking at a horse that was for sale. He stopped in front of this horse's stall and asked her where the horse had come from and whether or not it had a specific brand. It turns out that he knew the horse. It had flipped over and seriously hurt its previous owner. It was supposed to be put down. Because it was such a nice looking horse, it was instead sold to a dealer who had no history on it. Luckily my friend found out before her daughter was hurt.