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Shoulder-In Help

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  • Shoulder-In Help

    I have a 7 year old 17hh Irish Sport Horse gelding and he is ready to start shoulder ins. I want him to learn them in the best way possible. He is still pretty green, knows turn on the forehand/haunches, leg yielding, collections, and extentions.
    How did you teach your horse?

    By the way, we don't just do dressage. We do jumpers and eventing mainly but I will not take him anywhere without a good dressage foundation.

    Any training tips will be greatly appreciated!!!

    This is him if you need an idea of how he moves:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87pIU95l9zI
    Please visit the Donate page!

    https://justworldeventer.squarespace.com

  • #2
    The key thing when you are getting your own aids sorted out is to make sure that you are asking for the SI at a time and place that you do not have to worry about keeping the horse going forward. (Usually in the beginning the rider uses too much hand which restricts the forward movement.) So if you start, say, in the walk headed toward the stable or the exit door of the arena, then the best way to ask is after making a small circle (10 meters) or as you are coming out of a correct corner. You want to make that turn and when the horse is bent correctly, just add inside leg and keep the outside hand and drive the horse forward & sideways for a few steps. Then immediately circle again to come out of it.
    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

    Comment


    • #3
      Based upon that clip I would say the horse is not yet quit ready to start shoulder in, it is too lowered/quick/needs to be able to do smaller figures/etc. However, some steps of shoulder fore in walk, for the rider to learn timing for a few steps and then straighten could be a introduction (although a clear theory and application and teacher is needed). Shoulder fore is the bend of a 20 m circle, ridden straight ahead, while shoulder in (on three tracks) is the bend of a 10 m circle (which I would say is not yet going to happen with even bending on this horse in the balance of the vid).

      In shoulder fore/in, the inside leg of the rider is pulsed closer to the girth, while the outside leg is stretched down and back (to guard against the hindquarters falling out). Riders hips stay parallel with horses, and inside shoulder is slightly back (parallel with horses for this exercise). The rider must be capable of riding the horse between the inside leg and the outside rein w/o counterbending. The rider takes the horse to the first step onto the circle, and then continues on down the long side (horse looking slightly to inside, even bending through the horses body). If the horse continues on the arc of the circle, there is no outside hh/reaction to pulsing of the inside calf (coordinated with the inside hindleg). If the horse bends excessively, there is too much inside rein. Always straighten the horse, conclude the exercises. By doing it in walk, with an instructor who focuses on timing (no niggling with the reins/heels as on the vid) and balance of the horse.
      I.D.E.A. yoda

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Originally posted by Eclectic Horseman View Post
        The key thing when you are getting your own aids sorted out is to make sure that you are asking for the SI at a time and place that you do not have to worry about keeping the horse going forward. (Usually in the beginning the rider uses too much hand which restricts the forward movement.) So if you start, say, in the walk headed toward the stable or the exit door of the arena, then the best way to ask is after making a small circle (10 meters) or as you are coming out of a correct corner. You want to make that turn and when the horse is bent correctly, just add inside leg and keep the outside hand and drive the horse forward & sideways for a few steps. Then immediately circle again to come out of it.
        Thanks! That really helps!!!
        Please visit the Donate page!

        https://justworldeventer.squarespace.com

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
          Based upon that clip I would say the horse is not yet quit ready to start shoulder in, it is too lowered/quick/needs to be able to do smaller figures/etc. However, some steps of shoulder fore in walk, for the rider to learn timing for a few steps and then straighten could be a introduction (although a clear theory and application and teacher is needed). Shoulder fore is the bend of a 20 m circle, ridden straight ahead, while shoulder in (on three tracks) is the bend of a 10 m circle (which I would say is not yet going to happen with even bending on this horse in the balance of the vid).

          In shoulder fore/in, the inside leg of the rider is pulsed closer to the girth, while the outside leg is stretched down and back (to guard against the hindquarters falling out). Riders hips stay parallel with horses, and inside shoulder is slightly back (parallel with horses for this exercise). The rider must be capable of riding the horse between the inside leg and the outside rein w/o counterbending. The rider takes the horse to the first step onto the circle, and then continues on down the long side (horse looking slightly to inside, even bending through the horses body). If the horse continues on the arc of the circle, there is no outside hh/reaction to pulsing of the inside calf (coordinated with the inside hindleg). If the horse bends excessively, there is too much inside rein. Always straighten the horse, conclude the exercises. By doing it in walk, with an instructor who focuses on timing (no niggling with the reins/heels as on the vid) and balance of the horse.
          Keep in mind that this video was from several weeks back. He is low because he is only going to be competing Beginner Novice for a few months and I don't want his neck higher for now.

          The "niggling with the reins/heels" was me doing what my teacher said. The reins are a bit wiggly because that is how I ask him to bend a bit more to the inside. He is still green and that is how he responds best.
          The heels were to get him to use his back more and it worked. Before I got him he was never ridden and he is still learning how to do everyting.
          Please visit the Donate page!

          https://justworldeventer.squarespace.com

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Probably should have posted this in the Eventing forum...
            Please visit the Donate page!

            https://justworldeventer.squarespace.com

            Comment


            • #7
              not sure why you think that it is better in the eventing forum -- should be the same basic sequence in terms of how you introduce the movement. ideayoda's description was really clear -- if you don't like her assessment of where your horse is or your riding, remember -- it's a fuzzy video, we are all random folks on the internet --

              but both responses you got here gave you good clear steps on starting the movement with a green horse, so you can take that and leave behind the parts that upset you!
              The big man -- my lost prince

              The little brother, now my main man

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by asterix View Post
                not sure why you think that it is better in the eventing forum -- should be the same basic sequence in terms of how you introduce the movement. ideayoda's description was really clear -- if you don't like her assessment of where your horse is or your riding, remember -- it's a fuzzy video, we are all random folks on the internet --

                but both responses you got here gave you good clear steps on starting the movement with a green horse, so you can take that and leave behind the parts that upset you!
                Um, listen. None of it upset me. This is just one thing that sucks about the internet is that you can misinterperate peoples feelings by the way they type.
                Nothing upsets me. I was just explaining why I did things. I want to post it in the eventing forum because I am an eventer and, from my experience, dressage rides have turned their noses up at me and treated me badly when I bring my eventer to a dressage show. I just want different perspectives from dressage riders and eventers alike. I know they were good responses. These people obviously are very goor riders and trainers and know what they are talking about. I wouldn't dare get angry at critisism from somebody who knows more than I do.
                Please visit the Donate page!

                https://justworldeventer.squarespace.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think you are being hypersensitive to the reactions of dressage people at dressage shows.

                  I have evented, and at that time I took lessons from one of the top riders in the country. No, she didn't let me get away with anything, event riders try to gloss over the minor details. Like the basics .

                  Bending from the leg which requires a stable, strong base is essential to S/I. This is when cheating on turns and corners shows up, you can't do a good S/I w/o impulsion from the inside leg, and support from the outside leg.

                  I first play with spiral circles, I spiral in to a 10 m circle using minimal inside rein then, get a feel for moving him out while maintaining the same bend from the inside leg to the outside rein, which is not pulling. If you can drop the inside rein, and he still keeps his head in the bend, you know you are getting the feel.
                  Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                  Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    As a judge many times the eventer does quite well (in dressage), it is because their horses are more freely forward, up, open, active IF they ride as they would if they were jumping, riding the horse forward to the hand (fence). I love eventing, and think most dressage mounts would benefit from jumping (as would their riders balance).

                    The question is would you ride your horse this low, etc to a fence? Then why on the flat? There is a difference between asking the horse to chew the reins forward/down/out and seek the hand as an exercise and a working posture. What happens when hand comes before leg is that the horse closes their throatlatch and lowers....and I doubt you do this into a fence because the horse would tend to take off late and hit a fence.

                    I realize you were being told to 'niggle' and that, for me, is a problem. It has nothing to do with greeness, even more of a reason not to do so. The horse must go from the leg (lowered heel,etc) into the hand. Do you use your heel to a fence? Why would you on the flat? If you do the calf becomes flacid and the heel draws up. It is TIMING the aid which is important. Bending comes not from the rein, but from the legs.

                    If he has only been ridden for a couple of months, then remember that SI is usually a movement presented at second level, as part of the beginning of collection. First the horse must go on the bit, not merely accept it. Otherwises its rather like saying jump a rising triple for your first fence w/o any trotting of caveletti or in&outs, there is a progressivity to everything.

                    The use of the neck (lowered/higher) is a sign of balance. Want the hindquarters to work correctly/straight? Then you have to allow the horse to use it, not take it away by steadily lowering/flexing it too early on. I repeat the question about does the horse jump this lowered?
                    I.D.E.A. yoda

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Agreed with what I've read in the first few posts - my instructor has us do a 10m circle in the corner and then shoulder in down the long wall. The circle sets up the bend and sets him up for success. Make sure your aids are right too - keep your hips straight and forward with shoulders at the same angle as his, weight your outside stirrup, and use inside leg to cue him down the wall.
                      If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude.
                      ~ Maya Angelou

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SillyKobie View Post
                        Keep in mind that this video was from several weeks back. He is low because he is only going to be competing Beginner Novice for a few months and I don't want his neck higher for now.

                        You can keep him a little lower and add collection without disturbing the frame too much.
                        From how the horse was going several weeks back does not change much.
                        Six months back then maybe, but collection does not progress that quickly.
                        It's time to put him together a little more. Your scores will be that much better, even at BN.
                        IMO, get out of BN!! lol. He's too big and nice for 2'6'' fences. I bet he doesn't even have to jump!

                        Also, Dressage and Eventing riders go by the same training scale...if they train correctly.
                        http://kaboomeventing.com/
                        http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
                        Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I was watching Gary Rockwell working on shoulder in at a clinic a couple of weeks ago. He gave me a visual that I have found very helpful.

                          I have always ended up with too much neck bend, and I know I'm not alone in this... I think the concept I was taught of coming into the SI off a 10 meter circle tends to exacerbate this for me.

                          He talked about taking the first step of a turn across the diagonal, so the horse is actually more straight in it's neck, then just opening the ouside hand a little and using the inside leg to guide the horse down the track. His phrase was "the horse shouldn't know anything is happening."

                          Works for us, is all I can say.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SillyKobie View Post
                            The "niggling with the reins/heels" was me doing what my teacher said. The reins are a bit wiggly because that is how I ask him to bend a bit more to the inside. He is still green and that is how he responds best.
                            The heels were to get him to use his back more and it worked. Before I got him he was never ridden and he is still learning how to do everything.
                            correction: he is still green because you talk to him in baby language. Time for correct grammar!
                            He is too nice a horse and you are too balanced a rider to let him flop around like that.
                            Use your back and put that boy together and make an honest Eventer out of him and go kick butt! : ) !!
                            http://kaboomeventing.com/
                            http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
                            Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by atr View Post
                              I was watching Gary Rockwell working on shoulder in at a clinic a couple of weeks ago. He gave me a visual that I have found very helpful.

                              I have always ended up with too much neck bend, and I know I'm not alone in this... I think the concept I was taught of coming into the SI off a 10 meter circle tends to exacerbate this for me.

                              He talked about taking the first step of a turn across the diagonal, so the horse is actually more straight in it's neck, then just opening the ouside hand a little and using the inside leg to guide the horse down the track. His phrase was "the horse shouldn't know anything is happening."

                              Works for us, is all I can say.
                              Debbie McDonald teaches it from the leg yield for the same reason (too much bend in neck.) She leg yields to the rail from the quarter line and then asks for the SI at the rail.
                              "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                you might find this helpful http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...d.php?t=178116
                                check out the foruth link its has diagrams of shoulder ins

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by purplnurpl View Post
                                  correction: he is still green because you talk to him in baby language. Time for correct grammar!
                                  He is too nice a horse and you are too balanced a rider to let him flop around like that.
                                  Use your back and put that boy together and make an honest Eventer out of him and go kick butt! : ) !!
                                  Haha! Thanks! I want to kick butt, but I know from my previous pony that a good event horse comes from good dressage.
                                  I like the way you put that in the bold though.
                                  And what is underlined, am I really that balanced?
                                  Please visit the Donate page!

                                  https://justworldeventer.squarespace.com

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    The problem is that your horse is not coming through correctly because you are arching your back and letting the weight of your torso fall on the front edge of your stirrup. You need to round your buttocks under you so that as you rise, you feel the weight of your body fall through your heels.

                                    I don't tell people this very often, but in this instance, I'll say that your reins are just a tad too long...not much, but just alittle.

                                    Because your horse is still not coming through, this also means that you do not yet have the ability to collect him, which is what is needed for shoulder-in and slightly later, for half-pass. You need to be able to step into a stirrup and actually feel the diagonal shoulder lift, while at the same time the horse will flex to the bit. You cannot step into a stirrup correctly and with effectiveness as long as your pelvis is so tipped forward that your back is arching. When you get your buttocks under you correctly, this actually flattens the small of your back somewhat.

                                    There was one other thing that I heard in the first half of the tape that is not correct unless you are on a circle. You were actually doing a small circle by the time you got the horse transitioning from the walk to the trot. The teacher was talking about doing the transition from the inside leg to the outside rein. Let me explain what needs to happen in terms of what each side of the horse must be doing.

                                    When you ride a circle, the transition from walk to trot is initiated from the inside leg to the outside rein because the inside of the horse needs to stay short for the circle and the outside of the horse needs to get longer for the circle. The longer side means that the horse's outside shoulder needs to be free to move more forward, or lengthen, to maintain the correct length for the circle. However, when you ride this transition on a straight line, the transition must be asked from the outside hind to the inside rein. On the straight line you need the inside shoulder to be able to move more forward for the transiton.

                                    Said another way, this means for the transition from walk to trot on a straight line, an outside rein halfhalt is needed. When you ask for the transiton from walk to trot on a circle, you would use the inside rein halfhalt.

                                    When you ride any kind of circle segment, the horse's outside shoulder needs to be higher in the air than the inside shoulder, so the rider must weight the inside stirrup to lift that outside shoulder higher. The shoulder-in, once you can collect the horse, is ridden as if the shoulders of the horse have just begun a 10-meter circle. To ride a 10-meter circle requires collection, so your first order of business when you are a little farther along will be to execute good 10-meter circles...ones in which the horse's inside hind leg almost feels as a pivot point.

                                    But, the shoulder-in is ridden so that only the shoulders begin the circle. Meanwhile, the hindquarters continue the straight line, which means that you must be very careful that your outside leg does not get farther forward than your inside stirrup, and also that while the outside stirrup still needs weight on its rear edge, that weighting must not be greater than the weighting you place on the rear edge of your inside stirrup. You inside hipbone must rotate slight to the outside toward your horse's outside ear, but you must maintain the correct weighting and placement of the stirrups as you point your inside hipbone.

                                    Good luck in fixing your posting trot position, as it will be key in you being able to learn sitting trot later on. While shoulder-in can be executed in rising trot, the tests will force you to sit for this exercise, so it is imperative that your seat progresses as well as your horse's ability to come through.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Debbie McDonald teaches it from the leg yield for the same reason (too much bend in neck.) She leg yields to the rail from the quarter line and then asks for the SI at the rail.
                                      __________________
                                      Ohhh I like this
                                      I have horse to sell to you. Horse good for riding. Can pull cart. Horse good size. Eats carrots and apples. Likes attention. Move head to music. No like opera! You like you buy.

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