• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Okay great COTH dressage gurus...thoughts?UPDATE, new ???

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Okay great COTH dressage gurus...thoughts?UPDATE, new ???

    My mare has been in training for the last 60 days to be sold as a hunter. He went home for Christmas, so I'm pitch hitting for the next couple of days.

    Background..I've had her since she was 3 months old. When I look back to this photo (and nope, it wasn't photoshopped) at age four, I think why, can I not repeat this. This was a trainer who had her in training a few years ago.

    http://s222.photobucket.com/albums/d...t=diva_4x6.jpg

    When I got on her yesterday and today, I could tell what an awesome job the trainer has been doing because she feels so strong. But even he said before he left, that she still wants to dive down on the forehand and run...instead of rocking back (heck, she has to learn this as a hunter too, unless she wants to take down all the fences. ). Since I've had the luxury of riding my schoolmaster in many lessons this month....I felt a little more knowledageable since the last time I rode her (October)...I could feel the issue was straightness. She will avoid coming into the bridle by wiggling any which way she can. Once I had her straight and on the outside rein..she was using herself much better. We started cantering and I could feel her sitting back as much as she can (she is croup high), but still could not get her soft in the bridle.

    Here's the two things that are driving me nuts.

    1. She could care less about stretching long and low...that is a fight to the finish...all she wants to do is wiggle, look around, anything but submit and reach over her back. She is much softer when she is asked to come UP instead of down....do I worry that our stretchy warmup isn't as productive that I like. I feel like I'm cheating since this part of the puzzle is never completed.

    2. It drives me nuts, I can get her to use her body, but still cannot get her soft in the bridle.


    And a side note...teeth were done last month, just had the chiro look at her, saddle does fit, she does have a full time trainer.

    Granted, I know I have her for sale, but this puzzle drives me insane. She does try, and she does work hard....but just will not give in the bridle.

    I tried on her on Lubrisyn for 10 days, trainer didn't see any difference so I took her off. She does lock her right jaw....I almost wonder if she could have a jaw issue...but the chiro that just looked at her is VERY thorough and found nothing conclusive.

    I'm not asking her to passage and piaffe, just make connection.

    I've tried every trick in the book that I know of....anything worth trying (not interested in gadgets).
    Last edited by dalpal; Dec. 31, 2008, 04:52 PM.

  • #2
    Forward, down, out come from the horse sustaining a steady connection and working into the hand. The horse (likely) does not want to go out of balance. The question is always: would you jump the horse from the posture you are asking her to work on the flat? 60 days is just enough to go straight ahead, make large circle, make a steady connection, and sustain a steady tempo. In doing large circles (20 m) the horse can softly chew, offer a light lateral flexability, any flexion (longitudinally) will come over time. Very cute horse, dont ask more of her than the first pix, and thats already alot imho.
    I.D.E.A. yoda

    Comment


    • #3
      perhaps she just needs some time to grow up? she's still young to be all business when you want her to be, and some horses mature slower than others. Does she get enough turn out time, time to be a horse? shes certainly a cutie and obviously she has it in her, but maybe she's telling you she's not quite ready to be "all business"
      Horses are amazing physicists, they know the exact angle, thrust, speed required to land you face first in the only pile of poop in the entire arena

      Comment


      • #4
        I agree that going soft on the bridle and stretching long and low go hand in hand. So, if she's not giving in the bridle, she probably won't stretch.

        Where does she lock, in her jaw, her poll or both? Does she give laterally equally to both reins? If she does not not understand the actions of the snaffle, I would work her in hand. If the rider does not understand the actions of the snaffle, I would have the rider work in hand. It can do a lot for the rider's hands as well as the horse's mouth.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hello. I'm a bit confused. I'm not sure if I got this right but that picture is a few years old? How old is she now? What has she done between the time when this trainer had her in training and the recent 60 day session with the newer trainer? What do the trainers say about her desire/ability to stretch over the back?

          A.

          Comment


          • #6
            If this mare is anything like my hot blooded little mare, you have to be very good about releasing. Just flex the fingers when you take her up, then immediately release. It is during the release that my mare goes down and round.

            The hot blooded ones you can't tell, you must ask.
            www.dmwarmbloods.com
            http://www.facebook.com/pages/DM-War...3105523?ref=hl

            Comment


            • #7
              If the way she is being ridden in the picture is anything like how she is being ridden today, the problem stems from her being held to the bit. She has not been trained to go to the bridle because the reins are too short for there to be anywhere for her to go. You need to let go of her face by about four inches worth of rein. Then, use your body to ride her hindquarters to the contact. It will also help if you stay more vertical in your position, and don't lean forward. If you still cannot ride to the contact, just bend your elbows until you have contact, a little more snug that you want. As you ride into the contact, it will become heavier. Slowly return your elbows to the correct degree of bend as you follow the contact downward.

              Comment


              • #8
                1. She could care less about stretching long and low...that is a fight to the finish...all she wants to do is wiggle, look around, anything but submit and reach over her back. She is much softer when she is asked to come UP instead of down....do I worry that our stretchy warmup isn't as productive that I like. I feel like I'm cheating since this part of the puzzle is never completed.

                -- What does her trainer say?

                -- In the picture she looks like a very short backed, square, horse, and it's hard for them to stretch. DOn't expect to starr with a big downward stretch. It might be very slight, in fact. After that it takes a lot of pushing with the leg to push the horse's neck out and down.

                2. It drives me nuts, I can get her to use her body, but still cannot get her soft in the bridle.

                --What does her trainer say?

                --What is 'soft in the bridle'. Is what you want appropriate right now? How soft should she be?

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
                  Forward, down, out come from the horse sustaining a steady connection and working into the hand. The horse (likely) does not want to go out of balance. The question is always: would you jump the horse from the posture you are asking her to work on the flat? 60 days is just enough to go straight ahead, make large circle, make a steady connection, and sustain a steady tempo. In doing large circles (20 m) the horse can softly chew, offer a light lateral flexability, any flexion (longitudinally) will come over time. Very cute horse, dont ask more of her than the first pix, and thats already alot imho.

                  This horse is now 7, she isn't green. The picture is when she was four.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Originally posted by angel View Post
                    If the way she is being ridden in the picture is anything like how she is being ridden today, the problem stems from her being held to the bit. She has not been trained to go to the bridle because the reins are too short for there to be anywhere for her to go. You need to let go of her face by about four inches worth of rein. Then, use your body to ride her hindquarters to the contact. It will also help if you stay more vertical in your position, and don't lean forward. If you still cannot ride to the contact, just bend your elbows until you have contact, a little more snug that you want. As you ride into the contact, it will become heavier. Slowly return your elbows to the correct degree of bend as you follow the contact downward.

                    You are correct. She was held up too early, I've been told that many times from other trainers. This was the inital dressage training that she had (not me in the picture).

                    I'm sorry that I left out a key ingredient that she is turning 8 in April. She has come far from the four year old point. Eqtrainer started steering her in the right direction last year.

                    I'm just wondering now (especially since you made that insightful observation..that many have made when working with her......I wouldn't have picked up on it in a still shot, so kudos to you. )...if she just will never understand true contact. She was my first young horse and I hadn't a clue about young horses...so I sent her off to a trainer. You can definitely feel that she wants you to hold her up....it has gotten better, but at first she would get REALLY PISSEY if you expected her to find her own point of balance.

                    She does prefer the hunter frame, we've all come to that conclusion, that her balance point is just more comfortable in that frame work. I just couldn't help thinking today....if only you'd soften, if only.

                    I adore this mare...ADORE her. As I told the chiro last week....can you change her body, so she can do upper level dressage And often joke with the farrier...do you have a piaffe shoe in that truck....of course he always responds.."Of course I do, but it'll cost you."

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by slc2 View Post
                      1. She could care less about stretching long and low...that is a fight to the finish...all she wants to do is wiggle, look around, anything but submit and reach over her back. She is much softer when she is asked to come UP instead of down....do I worry that our stretchy warmup isn't as productive that I like. I feel like I'm cheating since this part of the puzzle is never completed.

                      -- What does her trainer say?

                      -- In the picture she looks like a very short backed, square, horse, and it's hard for them to stretch. DOn't expect to starr with a big downward stretch. It might be very slight, in fact. After that it takes a lot of pushing with the leg to push the horse's neck out and down.

                      2. It drives me nuts, I can get her to use her body, but still cannot get her soft in the bridle.

                      --What does her trainer say?

                      --What is 'soft in the bridle'. Is what you want appropriate right now? How soft should she be?

                      Of course the wonderful magician trainer doesn't have the amateur problems. He makes her look beautiful. But, he does say, she is difficult as far as dressage work and belongs in the hunter ring. When I put her in inital training in November with him, he spent about 10 days working her to see just how much she was willing to give him as a dressage horse and he came to the conclusion that she is going to make someone one heck of a hunter, but not an upper level dressage horse.

                      Could I keep her and do first/second level dressage on her and let him continue to jump her....I could, but then again, I already have a horse who can do 3rd/4th level work, so I don't really need a lower level horse to pay board on.

                      And I do have to say, put a fence in front of her and she gets that rhythmic hunter roll and just looks gorgeous going over. I just get quezy looking at the jumps.

                      I plan to keep her in full training for the next few months and then we'll go from there....if she stays mine, guess I'll be shopping for a jumping saddle.

                      SLC...she's built very much like an American TB.....mom was off the track....so imagine a TB build, with a little more warmblood bulk (Sire was Graf Genius)

                      I would have asked the trainer these questions today, but won't see him for a few days/when he gets back.

                      My schoolmaster is soft, you ask, he gives, you soften.......with this girl there is never much give, very strong in the jaw...she does soften more when allowed to come up...but will hardly ever soften when asked to stretch.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Oh and thank you very much to all of you for taking time to answer me. Always good to get different insight from different riders.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          This is the only recent shot I have of her...it was taken in October, it was her second day over some small fences. Hubby used to come out and take lots of pics, but he's too busy these days....so I don't have any recent pictures of her on the flat.

                          http://s222.photobucket.com/albums/d...rent=Divaj.jpg

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            She could care less about stretching long and low...that is a fight to the finish...all she wants to do is wiggle, look around, anything but submit and reach over her back. She is much softer when she is asked to come UP instead of down....do I worry that our stretchy warmup isn't as productive that I like. I feel like I'm cheating since this part of the puzzle is never completed.
                            Just a thought on this, my horse who is pretty square and carries his neck higher has a hard time with F/D/O however I don't ask him at the beginning of the ride I ask at the end, to test whether he is truly coming through and reaching for the bit. If I asked at the beginning before warming him up, or even as the warm up, there would be no way (at this stage in his training) he would offer it to me correctly.

                            2. It drives me nuts, I can get her to use her body, but still cannot get her soft in the bridle.
                            Not too sure why she isn't softening except that maybe you are asking for too much and for too long? If she doesn't naturally carry herself then ask for it slowly. Accept the odd stride then ask for one more then one more. It takes a while for a horse to learn to carry itself.

                            GL she's a cutie and I would take her in a heartbeat
                            I have horse to sell to you. Horse good for riding. Can pull cart. Horse good size. Eats carrots and apples. Likes attention. Move head to music. No like opera! You like you buy.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Funny story today.

                              I rode my little hot number today (it was cool and she was frisky) with a wonderful young hunter rider in the ring. My mare was strong, and really pulling on me...just feeling her oats. The young hunter rider had admired her before, and she is quite a good rider. She complimented me on how cute the mare is......so I said.."Would you like to ride her"...Very sweetly she said.."Do you mean it?" "Sure, come ride her." I told her that she was a bit strong today and just know she's alot of horse right now (Of course, I had watched this young lady do a wonderful job with her horse who was also acting a bit fresh).....she gets on and rides her around and yells..."Oh my god, she is sooooo soft, I love her." I think this was my reaction.... I started laughing and said...."You obviously have never really felt soft, when we get done with her, I'm going to let you ride my gelding..now he is SUPER SOFT." So we finish up with my mare, who looked like a million bucks with this teenager on her.

                              I get my schoolmaster out....now this boy is so sensitive (I have pics of him on the TB thread)...you barely have to even touch him, he is all seat and easy, easy, easy to ride. So I warm him up and then let her get on....and I mean he is super soft to me. She starts riding him around and I explain to her to just use the outside rein and really give on the inside...and boom, he stretched right into contact. So I yell...."Now does he feel soft to you?" Her..."No, not really." I had to laugh....because as a hunter rider what she was looking for was totally different than what I am looking for as a dressage rider. What I think feels tough and resistant, to her felt soft and easy.....What I think feels totally soft and light, doesn't feel easy to her."

                              So I asked her to explain her definition of soft so we could compare notes....."Youre mare is so easy to move off my leg, Cooper isn't that easy." "Ahhhh, very true....Diva is very gifted laterally and Cooper can get stuck on your right leg. " The right leg thing has never bothered me, because I just boot him off and get him straight on the right rein....as a hunter rider, she wasn't looking for as much bridle contact, she was looking for the horse to respond to her leg.

                              I thought it was a very interesting experiment. Now I understand why all the hunter folks who have ridden her have really, really liked her.

                              Jacksprat..thank you for that nice compliment...she is a very special horse to me.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Trainer and I talked when he got back....and he said he absolutely knew what I was talking about....she will offer to collect, but very resistant about touching her face.

                                I told him about her family history....she had a 1/2 brother who was diagnosed with arthritis in his jaw at age 8. He was very reluctant to have his face touched until they injected him.

                                So, trainer talked to the vet (thought the vet might take him a little more seriously than me/the amateur owner)......vet said that he thought we should inject that area to see if it would help. I hated the thought of injecting...BUT, if it would help..then let's try it (don't kill me EqT) He said if it worked, in the future we would only use Hylaurinic Acid.

                                He said give it 5 days....5 days for her to realize it wouldn't hurt..IF this was the problem.

                                I rode her yesterday and I do have to say she was much less wiggly and willing...not 100 percent.....but the cooliest thing was....she actually gave me a few strides of canter holding herself up...I let go of the reins and she stayed "UP"....I immediately stretched her down...patted her and told her how wonderful she was and stopped.

                                Now today, we had freakin 50 mph wind gusts.....she is so good natured and trustworthy, I can ride her in these conditions...but not my 20ish year old schoolmaster. So we went out...and she was not bad, my friend thought she looked better...but here's the same ole issue with her (Eqt can attest to this).

                                When she hits the end of the rein, instead of reaching for it, she immediately bounces off, never steadies in the head.

                                My friend (FEI rider) rode her yesterday and said she could feel EXACTLY what I was describing...she never finds her happy place.

                                So today, same friend watched me ride.....she said...she is willing to bend, she's giving at the poll, she's relaxed through her body....but just fussey with her head.

                                Now this same issue occurs no matter who the rider is, what saddle is on her, what bit is in her mouth. The teeth are done, she has a chiropractor...everything I can possibly think of, has been addressed.

                                She is SUCH A GOOD NATURED horse, that I really have a hard time believing that this is an attitude issue....she isn't pinning her ears, being ugly, she is just evading contact with the bit. I am not riding her in a flash, and perhaps I should next time.

                                My friend agrees completely with me with the above paragraph.

                                And perhaps it is just the second day and it was gusty....maybe it will continue to unravel for the next few days.......she is a little better than before the injection, I will say that.

                                I'm just wondering if we are missing something else. Vet said that if this doesn't work, then we will consider xrays of her neck.

                                I don't care if she is an upper level dressage horse, lower level, hunter...I don't care, I just want her comfortable in her work. She is such a willing horse and I will do all that I can to figure this out.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Firmness of contact is not even often about attitude. It's about conformation and balance in motion.

                                  Your hunter rider probably rides the horse with a different rein length. I've heard a zillian times people say a rider that rides with long reins finds their horse 'soft' and 'easy'.

                                  The hunter rider rides with long reins and the horse doesn't have to carry himself in the same way. The rider doesn't have to coordinate the aids in the same way, either, and the horse doesn't have to work the same muscles or use the same sort of balance.

                                  If someone gets on and tells you 'oh she's so soft!' when to you she feels NOT soft, that means it's very likely a training issue.

                                  I very much doubt the injection would have had such a big effect so quickly. It takes longer than that to work.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by slc2 View Post
                                    Firmness of contact is not even often about attitude. It's about conformation and balance in motion.

                                    Your hunter rider probably rides the horse with a different rein length. I've heard a zillian times people say a rider that rides with long reins finds their horse 'soft' and 'easy'.

                                    The hunter rider rides with long reins and the horse doesn't have to carry himself in the same way. The rider doesn't have to coordinate the aids in the same way, either, and the horse doesn't have to work the same muscles or use the same sort of balance.

                                    If someone gets on and tells you 'oh she's so soft!' when to you she feels NOT soft, that means it's very likely a training issue.

                                    I very much doubt the injection would have had such a big effect so quickly. It takes longer than that to work.
                                    SLC.....the little hunter rider was one day. I do NOT think it is a training issue...I just simply do not. I also disagree that an injection into the jaw wouldn't give some relief in 24 hours if it was an arthritis issue.

                                    And no, my mare still has the same issue on long reins, in a long and low frame IF you actually ask her to flex in her jaw..especially her right jaw.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Oh that puts a new light on it.

                                      I hope it turns out in your favor and the results are good, whatever it turns out to be.

                                      I usually hope it's a training issue as it's easy to change how one rides, treating medical conditions can be tougher.

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by slc2 View Post
                                        Oh that puts a new light on it.

                                        I hope it turns out in your favor and the results are good, whatever it turns out to be.

                                        I usually hope it's a training issue as it's easy to change how one rides, treating medical conditions can be tougher.
                                        Thanks Slc...I do too.....Happy New Year.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X