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Robert Dover's looking for and American Valegro...

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  • #81
    Didn't Valegro win the British young horse championships at 4, 5 and 6? If that was Valegro, not exactly sounding like a questionable young horse to me.


    Also - Carl didn't train him to GP, from all I understand - Charlotte did. Carl was just generous to let her keep the ride.
    Originally posted by Silverbridge
    If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.

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    • #82
      Originally posted by 2tempe View Post
      So are you saying that all of the "me"s who try to buy nice horses and take lessons so that we can show and learn, should instead give that money to USDF or some other organization that will allegedly fix our dressage standings? UH NO... I've worked hard for my $ and have given away quite enough.

      There is a LOT of money in the horse industry in this country. And sponsors and buyers. The first challenge is that the money is across multiple disciplines, and even across breeds. The most obvious place is the Hunter world, which doesn't even exist in Europe. But there are others as well. Unfortunately dressage is not at the top of the US list.
      And don't be so envious of Australia - that is one person with some land and a plan, not a whole country supporting it...
      Very true. This is a personal endevour with no outside support. I'm hoping to eventually gain a bit of funding but honestly getting funding is so rare and scarce there is no point even trying sometimes. But we are very very slowly getting there. Paint would dry quicker than the pace we are moving at but at least the idea is there and we are moving.

      Australia is very behind in the dressage world too. I'm nodding my head at a lot of things being said because it is the same here. And the money is even tighter and harder to import the latest thing from Europe because of the $25K plus price tag involved in just importing.
      Not my circus, not my monkeys!

      Comment


      • #83
        Didn't Valegro win the British young horse championships at 4, 5 and 6? If that was Valegro, not exactly sounding like a questionable young horse to me.


        Also - Carl didn't train him to GP, from all I understand - Charlotte did. Carl was just generous to let her keep the ride.
        Hester recognized his potential as a two year old . See below.

        Also, I think it's fair to say that Hester trained both Charlotte and Valegro to GP.

        Valegro, a Dutch bred stallion by Negro, was bought by Carl in Holland as a two year old at one of the famous Dutch stallion shows. He was a 'fantastic mover' and even at such a young age his enormous potential was self evident. At the age of 3, as Valegro's was being broken in, he was discovered to be a head shaker. Upon this discovery, Carl sent him straight back to Holland, knowing only too well the extra challenges associated with training horses with the head shaking condition.

        A short time after Valegro returned to Holland, Carl received a phone call to say that another buyer was interested and perhaps he should reconsider. He arranged another trip to visit this impressive horse. When Carl saw Valegro again, he decided to reconsider and brought him home to the England. Even though Valegro is still only four years old, his head shaking has done little to hinder his performance as he was crowned champion in the 4 year old class at the BD Young Horse & Breeding Championships and also won the Young Future Dressage Horse at the Badminton dressage championships. When asked about Valegro's head shaking, Carl explained that it is manageable, particularly with the use of his Net Relief muzzle net. 'He hates flies and anything around his face, but he gets better with work and has improved as he has matured. The muzzle net is a great invention as it really helps keep things under control'.
        http://www.equilibriumproducts.com/e..._head_shaking/

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        • #84
          I agree with those who stated that there are plenty of ambitious riders, professional and amateur, who do not have money to campaign a horse to even the medium levels. I definitely fall into this category.

          As a professional you are judged mostly by what you produce in the show ring. If your clients don't show, your name does not get out there. If your name does not get out there, you don't get clients who want to show. So, while you may be a decent rider and trainer, without someone backing you financially, you can't get your name out there to get nicer horses. It is really that simple. Don't believe me? Ask yourself how you found your trainer. What were her qualifications?

          As for lunge line lessons, they are out there, you just need to do some research. I offer them on not only to my private clients but on school horses at a GASP! H/J barn. The horses there do everything from jump low courses, go in low level dressage tests and therapeutic riding. There are other barn in my area that offer dressage lunge lessons.

          A horse can actually jump fences well and do a nice dressage test. Event horses do it all the time.

          Once a rider is pushing First Level, they either need to lease or buy. The same once they start jumping 2'6"-3 ft.

          As for trainers buying their own horses, again it is a financial risk. IF you don't have your own place and you put everything into one horse to build a program on and that horse does not work out, you are out $$$ and time. Not to mention what to do with said horse. This is where most trainers balk. You know in this business where that horse would end up if you try to sell it. No ethical trainer wants to be in that position.
          Last edited by ctab; Sep. 25, 2013, 06:50 PM. Reason: Damn you AC! def·i·nite·ly not defiantly!
          "I am a sand dancer... just here for the jumps!" - Schrammo
          http://atoxcequestrian.com/
          https://www.facebook.com/groups/127749947563045/

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          • #85
            Originally posted by ctab View Post
            I defiantly fall into this category.


            I defiantly fall into this category, too, dammit!
            "A horse's face always conveys clearly whether it is loved by its owner or simply used." - Anja Beran

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            • #86
              Originally posted by netg View Post
              Didn't Valegro win the British young horse championships at 4, 5 and 6? If that was Valegro, not exactly sounding like a questionable young horse to me.
              Also - Carl didn't train him to GP, from all I understand - Charlotte did. Carl was just generous to let her keep the ride.


              Valegro born 2002.
              Charlotte earliest rec show 2002 (Age 17)
              Valegro bought by Carl 2004
              Charlotte employed as groom in Feb 2007
              Charlotte had competed Fernandez up to elementary/medium level Feb 2007
              Valegro/Charlotte first Nat Champ at novice Sept 2007

              (Elementary – leg yield, collected trot & canter, simple changes)
              Medium – shoulder-in, half pass, extended & collected walk, extended trot & canter)
              ... _. ._ .._. .._

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              • #87
                Originally posted by Lost_at_C View Post
                Uh... no?! Valegro's uncertain prospects as a young horse are pretty well known. Yes, of course he always had nice paces, but in his early years he failed his licensing and was gelded accordingly. He was also a headshaker and Hester sold him at one point. His success is not a complete shocker, but neither was it in any way predictable on paper - that is what has made it so special to watch over the years, and less relevant to Robert Dover's agenda.

                Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
                Ok, sorry I misunderstood you!

                Anyone know why he failed his licensing? And how the headshaking issue was resolved?
                Actually, wait, I didn't misunderstand you. On the video Equibrit linked to Carl Hester praises Valegro's extraordinary gaits, especially the canter.

                Thanks Crockpot for the info about the management of the headshaking.


                Somehow on the Internet tales are told of these fabulous horses that were 13.2 tan ponies before they were developed by ultra-talented trainers into gleaming 16.2 hand Olympic and World Champions.

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                • #88
                  Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
                  Somehow on the Internet tales are told of these fabulous horses that were 13.2 tan ponies before they were developed by ultra-talented trainers into gleaming 16.2 hand Olympic and World Champions.
                  It's what Denny Emerson calls the "Uncle Walter effect" referring to Walt Disney and Walter Farley. People love to believe that they too can achieve greatness with little work and little expense and that all you need is talent and love.
                  Last edited by Eclectic Horseman; Sep. 26, 2013, 06:57 AM.
                  "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

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                  • #89
                    Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
                    Actually, wait, I didn't misunderstand you. On the video Equibrit linked to Carl Hester praises Valegro's extraordinary gaits, especially the canter.

                    Thanks Crockpot for the info about the management of the headshaking.


                    Somehow on the Internet tales are told of these fabulous horses that were 13.2 tan ponies before they were developed by ultra-talented trainers into gleaming 16.2 hand Olympic and World Champions.
                    GAP I'm not sure why you've taken such issue with my posts, but if the last sentence is aimed at me you're presuming rather a lot... I get my information from first-person observations and personal involvement with BD and BEF programmes, including our Young Horse Futurity - not from commercial advertising sites.

                    I think the most salient points have already been covered here, but I'll just finish by saying that if our British Team demonstrated anything, it's that competitive success is far more complex than RD seems to be hoping for - and I base that on the results of all FOUR combinations.
                    Proud COTH lurker since 2001.

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                    • #90
                      The last para was supposed to be a joke (sort of).

                      The video provided commentary straight from Carl Hester's mouth. In addition, the video shows that the horse was extraordinary. His ability to collect at the canter from the start was really wonderful.

                      I am simply taking issue with your statement that the horse was nothing special to begin with. I am not saying that he didn't have issues to overcome - after all what horse doesn't? His trainers have nurtured his talent and done an amazing job with him.

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                      • #91
                        Originally posted by Lost_at_C View Post
                        I think the most salient points have already been covered here, but I'll just finish by saying that if our British Team demonstrated anything, it's that competitive success is far more complex than RD seems to be hoping for - and I base that on the results of all FOUR combinations.
                        It is - but RD has always been supplied with trained upper level horses at no cost to himself. That would probably skew his point of view.
                        ... _. ._ .._. .._

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                        • #92
                          Seriously. You can't compare RD and CH.

                          They just are not in the same hemisphere in terms of being developers and trainers of Internationally competitive GP horses from scratch /backing whatever you want to caLL IT.

                          They are worlds apart.

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            What I see as the problem here vs. Europe is that USDF and our team coaches keep asking sponsors to finance failure at higher and higher costs to the sponsors, and no energy being put into a long term plan to support the base who supplies the pipeline of cash, horses, trainers, and riders we need for the future of the sport. Instead, they keep hoping to squeeze more assets out of an ever shrinking pool of resources.

                            Where do they expect the future of the sport to go if they continue pricing the base out of the sport with higher training and showing costs, an ever shrinking pool of good, correct trainers to teach our future horses and riders, and a strategy of propping up their businesses financially with higher commissions on more outrageously priced horses that no one knows how to train correctly?

                            At this point, were I a wealthy sponsor who could afford to finance an internationally competitive dressage horse, I'd send it to Europe, because I know they have a proven system that works for both horses and riders, as that would be in the best interest of my horse, my bank account, and my reputation as a breeder.

                            They want to keep shaking the money tree, but they won't water or fertilize it. If we buy RD a Valegro, where's the proof that he could find or teach a Charlotte to ride him correctly?

                            The strategy is to keep asking for more money to send our horses and riders to Europe, when it should be to raise US training, riding, and judging standards to the same level so that we don't have to finance those overseas campaigns. Where's THAT plan?
                            Lowly Farm Hand with Delusions of Barn Biddieom.
                            Witherun Farm
                            http://witherun-farm.blogspot.com/

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                            • #94
                              The whole post was great, but these two in particular stand out:

                              They want to keep shaking the money tree, but they won't water or fertilize it. If we buy RD a Valegro, where's the proof that he could find or teach a Charlotte to ride him correctly?

                              RD has had many high quality horses pass through his barn as well as talented riders. Anybody remember his reality show where the prize for the rider was a year apprenticeship with him? I have no idea if he put the time and care into that rider into the year that followed that CH did to Charlotte or not. But certainly RD has had opportunities over the years to develop others...he did very well himself as a competitor and gives clinics etc. Do we have a home grown Carl Hester somewhere? Maybe one will come along...

                              The strategy is to keep asking for more money to send our horses and riders to Europe, when it should be to raise US training, riding, and judging standards to the same level so that we don't have to finance those overseas campaigns. Where's THAT plan?

                              That was my idea of a national dressage academy in the USA, or some other idea along those lines.

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Originally posted by Countrywood View Post
                                The whole post was great, but these two in particular stand out:

                                They want to keep shaking the money tree, but they won't water or fertilize it. If we buy RD a Valegro, where's the proof that he could find or teach a Charlotte to ride him correctly?

                                RD has had many high quality horses pass through his barn as well as talented riders. Anybody remember his reality show where the prize for the rider was a year apprenticeship with him? I have no idea if he put the time and care into that rider into the year that followed that CH did to Charlotte or not. But certainly RD has had opportunities over the years to develop others...he did very well himself as a competitor and gives clinics etc. Do we have a home grown Carl Hester somewhere? Maybe one will come along...

                                The strategy is to keep asking for more money to send our horses and riders to Europe, when it should be to raise US training, riding, and judging standards to the same level so that we don't have to finance those overseas campaigns. Where's THAT plan?

                                That was my idea of a national dressage academy in the USA, or some other idea along those lines.
                                Countrywood, I love your idea, and I proposed a similar idea years ago, to have regional, developing horse and rider training centers. Yes, geography is a challenge in our country, but 3-4 strategically located institutions would go a long way to overcoming that problem. There are areas in our country with ideal costs of living, land prices, and climates for large scale horse populations, but the industry is not taking advantage of them.
                                Lowly Farm Hand with Delusions of Barn Biddieom.
                                Witherun Farm
                                http://witherun-farm.blogspot.com/

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Originally posted by Countrywood View Post
                                  The whole post was great, but these two in particular stand out:

                                  They want to keep shaking the money tree, but they won't water or fertilize it. If we buy RD a Valegro, where's the proof that he could find or teach a Charlotte to ride him correctly?

                                  RD has had many high quality horses pass through his barn as well as talented riders. Anybody remember his reality show where the prize for the rider was a year apprenticeship with him? I have no idea if he put the time and care into that rider into the year that followed that CH did to Charlotte or not. But certainly RD has had opportunities over the years to develop others...he did very well himself as a competitor and gives clinics etc. Do we have a home grown Carl Hester somewhere? Maybe one will come along...

                                  The strategy is to keep asking for more money to send our horses and riders to Europe, when it should be to raise US training, riding, and judging standards to the same level so that we don't have to finance those overseas campaigns. Where's THAT plan?

                                  That was my idea of a national dressage academy in the USA, or some other idea along those lines.
                                  Interesting that you mention that. The girl's name is Philesha Chandler and I just looked her up on centerlinescores and her record is, well, highly unimpressive given who she touts having worked with on her website.

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                                  • #97
                                    Anybody remember his reality show where the prize for the rider was a year apprenticeship with him?
                                    and Second prize was a two yr apprenticeship. just kidding..;-)

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Originally posted by dressurpferd01 View Post
                                      Interesting that you mention that. The girl's name is Philesha Chandler and I just looked her up on centerlinescores and her record is, well, highly unimpressive given who she touts having worked with on her website.
                                      Her results look just fine to me. They are certainly not highly unimpressive. How well you do at shows has much to do with the horses you are fortunate enough to get to ride. There are a lot of young pros out there and not enough star quality horses for them to train and ride. That said, I have no how well PC rides. I'm just starting to get miffed at how every rider is getting judged on their centerline scores record.

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        As an outsider looking in to the American horse culture, what strikes me is that in the USA people expect to make money out of horses, in the UK they expect to loose it. Paul Tapner, an Australian event rider based in the UK recently tweeted that he was driving to a competition in a horse box worth £100,000, filled with horses worth £50,000 each, to compete for a prize of £500.

                                        Big names only become big names if they compete on an international stage so saying they loose money by improving their skills or competing in Europe strikes me as odd: those costs are a business expense, surely?
                                        "Good young horses are bred, but good advanced horses are trained" Sam Griffiths

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by dressurpferd01 View Post
                                          Interesting that you mention that. The girl's name is Philesha Chandler and I just looked her up on centerlinescores and her record is, well, highly unimpressive given who she touts having worked with on her website.
                                          She's had some lower scores for sure, but most of were 10 years ago or more, which is before she trained with RD, I believe. Her scores have definitely improved over the past 10 years, and if you look on her FB page, she's still taking lessons with Robert and is going to be in Wellington this winter. And good for her...she had a dream and she's pursued it. You can't tell me that she probably hasn't worked her butt off to get somewhere.
                                          "I was not expecting the park rangers to lead the resistance, none of the dystopian novels I read prepared me for this but cool."

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