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Can we talk more about lateral walks?

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  • #21
    You don't seem to have read the rest of her post:

    Originally posted by slc2 View Post
    Trouble is, it's a show fix up, not a cure. Getting to the bottom of the problem (suppleness) worked a lot better.
    She repeats the same thing in another post--ie, she's tried AllyB's suggestion for years and didn't feel it worked.

    I have no dog in this fight regarding what to do, myself, but if you read through the thread, post by post, SLC is responding to AllyB's suggestion to slow the shoulder using tiny steps "without making it too much of a shoulder-in." SLC is not originating this idea or supporting it for correcting a lateral walk; rather she is saying it's not a cure.

    Then the usual suspects take this or that SLC post, quote it in part, and argue with that part. Whatever.
    Ring the bells that still can ring
    Forget your perfect offering
    There is a crack in everything
    That's how the light gets in.

    Comment


    • #22
      [quote][Then the usual suspects take this or that SLC post, quote it in part, and argue with that part. Whatever/QUOTE]

      And you are selectively quoting as well to make your point. Go back and read slc's posts again if you really are interested in what people were responding to. Things like shoulder in not being useful as a suppling exercise.

      The article I linked provides some good information for the OP.

      Comment


      • #23
        I have one horse with a huge walk that tended to get lateral when I first started riding her. She was not really off her forehand then. I always thought of it like a person walking downhill with large strides - it is hard to maintain coordination and you just end up sort of falling/being pulled forward, losing balance and rhythm as you go.

        What help with this horse;

        1) Attend the walk - ride it carefully (minimal work on a free rein) but don't over ride (over collect it) it.

        2) Lots of lateral work. Yes, leg yields help to mobilize the shoulder but that is about its only benefit. Shoulder in is great for engagement, suppleness and alignment. If you keep the hind legs engaged, they can't overdrive the front legs.

        3) Focus on abdominal development. We think so much about a horse's topline, but I think a lot of the ability of a horse to lift its back and co-ordinate diagonal pairs at the walk comes from the abs.

        If you know how to use a chambon, that can help. But be very careful if you don't have experience with one.
        See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

        Comment


        • #24
          My gelding also has a tendency toward a lateral walk. He is not a tense horse and I know I participated in an earlier conversation about what to do about it, walking away with some things to try.

          Something that has been very useful for me is having my horse work on a treadmill. At our barn, the treadmill work is at walk only with the speed adjusted to suit the horse's natural stride. As the horse's strength increases, we start to incorporate incline intervals into the workout. My horse has been on the treadmill two or three times a week for the last month and I have seen a big difference in his walk.

          He is more naturally forward than before and with a much purer rhythm in his walk. On a long hack today, he hardly took a lateral step. Obviously, the hill work is going to help build strength to push from behind but I think there is an added benefit in that this work is done with no bridle and no rider, he has to do all the work to balance himself without being able to depend on help.

          What do you think? Do you have any experience with this?

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by slc2 View Post
            No shoulder in isn't chiefly for suppling, not in the way that gets rid of a lateral walk, it is part of a general training program.
            My bold. Here's how I read this: SLC is talking about shoulder-in in relation to correcting a lateral walk.

            If you take every sentence by itself, yeah you can get your panties in a twist because god forbid she used the phrase "shoulder-in isn't chiefly for suppling". But if you read the whole sentence, along with the other posts, she doesn't say what you are getting so riled up about; she says pretty much the opposite.

            To me it's more about a useful correction for a lateral walk, not playing gotcha with SLC, although I realize that's an important game here.
            Ring the bells that still can ring
            Forget your perfect offering
            There is a crack in everything
            That's how the light gets in.

            Comment


            • #26
              My bold. Here's how I read this: SLC is talking about shoulder-in in relation to correcting a lateral walk.

              If you take every sentence by itself, yeah you can get your panties in a twist because god forbid she used the phrase "shoulder-in isn't chiefly for suppling
              [

              I think you are the one with your 'panties in a twist'. However you want to selectively quote her, she's wrong. OK? Shoulder in is a good exercise for suppling including for addressing the lateral walk.

              If you want to be slc's latest dalfanesque sidekick and attack everyone who disagrees with her, fine, but don't pretend you are on some higher moral ground.

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by egontoast View Post
                [

                I think you are the one with your 'panties in a twist'. However you want to selectively quote her, she's wrong. OK? Shoulder in is a good exercise for suppling including for addressing the lateral walk.

                If you want to be slc's latest dalfanesque sidekick and attack everyone who disagrees with her, fine, but don't pretend you are on some higher moral ground.
                Huh?

                All I want to know is about the lateral walk. If you have a reason to think the shoulder-in works, fine, say so and say why. What's your experienced with it in correcting a lateral walk? I'm interested to hear your opinion and your experience. Why even mention SLC? But no, it has to get all into the SLC thing and it's tiresome particularly when the claims about what she said get turned around to the opposite of what she said in order to continue it.

                And I'm disagreeing with SLC (or she's disagreeing with me) on another thread so yeah, whatever.
                Ring the bells that still can ring
                Forget your perfect offering
                There is a crack in everything
                That's how the light gets in.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Man, you've got it bad. I think you are needed on the Karen Robinson thread where your idol is under fire.

                  I guess you didn't read what I posted (except the slc stuff) . I linked an article on page one which explains why shoulder in is effective for this:

                  http://equisearch.com/horses_riding_...alwalk_080207/


                  Quote:
                  All of the old masters suggest that you ride shoulder-in to correct walk problems. Why? Because the horse has a connection in shoulder-in, he has flexion, and he has to be in front of the leg. These are the qualities that you need to ride the walk well. The three qualities of throughness: connection, flexion and in-front-of-the-leg. If you neglect these issues in the walk, they will eventually catch up with you..
                  The article is well written . Did you read it?

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #29
                    Hey there! OP here again.

                    Appreciate so much all the feedback, I'm think more about the tight back and when the lateral walk starts, picking up contact, going for shoulder- in, or slowing the walk to half steps. I do admit to laziness at times and stints of walking on the buckle after we've done a lot of transitions.

                    We had a great bareback yesterday and a fabulous hack today and NO lateral walk.

                    Again, REALLY appreciate the information, especially you guys that have dealt with this in your horse.

                    Also it takes a load off my mind that it's not a soundness issue.

                    Now my question is, perhaps I should start another thread, what exercises do you do to focus on the horse's abs??

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      um if the walk is a problem then i would use the half halt stride
                      here i explain how to perform it in case you dont know
                      http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...f+halts+stride

                      i would work the half halt stride with each transition starting with all walk paces
                      ie free walk medium walk and extented walk then do the same in trot and mix the walk with trot paces
                      this way you would be lenghtening an shorttening his stride and it better if you do it in a square areana so you xan use full length and width of the the school this will help the horse with his balance and to be striaght and forwards
                      working from butt to poll to a relaxed yaw

                      as they say-- cant run until one can walk

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I once met a very talented horse who came out of the womb with a pacey/lateral walk.

                        He is the only one that neither I nor any other professional trainer has been able to fix. He is a nicely bred horse of a breed that does not naturally pace, and he is well built. He is not tense. He does everything else required of 3rd to 4th level and would get mid to high 60's, even 70's, except that walk brings all his marks down.

                        Some are just like that.

                        Every other horse has responded to strengthening, impulsion and suppling exercises, of which the leg yield and shoulder in are the mainstays.

                        I wish all you fans and critics of the most prolific cut'n'paster on this board would simply use the ignore function. It is most annoying to have to wade through the dreck generated by the lot of you, especially the quotes.
                        "The Threat of Internet Ignorance: ... we are witnessing the rise of an age of equestrian disinformation, one where a trusting public can graze on nonsense packaged to look like fact."-LRG-AF

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Shoulder in, is not, in fact, chiefly a suppling exercise. It is chiefly a collecting exercise. Of course it helps some with suppling, just as anything with any bend can be argued as being a 'suppling' exercise.

                          But leg yield exists in the training program chiefly because it is a suppling exercise. Because the legs reach over in a way they will not do again til half pass, the leg yield work can supple more than the neck - the body, the hind legs.

                          And because leg yield can be done at different angles and in different positions, it also is different from using shoulder in and offers additional possibilities.

                          Leg yield is, indeed, an elementary exercise and quite a few riders leave it behind and scoff at it once they have learned the 'better' shoulder in. And unfortunately a lot of people don't leg yield correctly - they actually can make a horse stiffer with it. For years I saw a lot of incorrect leg yields, but with improved instruction that has gotten better.

                          Others tend to use half pass to improve suppleness, and if the horse knows it and the rider rides it well, it can indeed be a wonderful suppling exercise and a great warmup and loosening exercise.

                          But in fact, no one kind of lateral work is 'better' than another. They all have a usefulness for different situations. Leg yield is used all through training - in teaching zig zags and during alot of different work later on.

                          And as people stated in their comments, the shoulder in is NOT being used to correct a lateral walk because it supples, but in order to slow the shoulder down.

                          But I don't actually want to do that. I can get more freedom in the walks if I don't have to do that, and if instead, I correct the more basic problem, and have a bigger free-er walk. I can get a better score and have a suppler horse overall if I go after a more gymnastic approach.

                          I have seen both approaches and my own experience has told me that doing fundamental suppling work does an incredible job improving the walk - an even better job than the method I first learned. Shoulder in DOES stop the pacey walk by slowing down the shoulder. But I saw it repeatedly, the riders continued to have to do the shoulder in every time they showed the walk, because the basic issue was not addressed. With a horse with a basically flawed walk where the lateralness is present in the youngster, it is really necessary to get at it.
                          Last edited by slc2; Nov. 9, 2008, 08:00 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by slc2 View Post
                            And as people stated in their comments, the shoulder in is NOT being used to correct a lateral walk because it supples, but in order to slow the shoulder down.

                            I have seen both approaches and my own experience has told me that doing fundamental suppling work does an incredible job improving the walk. Shoulder in DOES stop the pacey walk by slowing down the shoulder. What it didn't do is address the stiffness that caused the lateral walk.


                            This is incorrect. SI is one of the best suppling excercises available and is more than capable of adressing lateral stiffness in the horse. And in no way does it "slow the shoulder down". The reason it works on lateral walks is because of the bending of the horses body and the increased engagement of the inside hind leg which causes an increase in collection.
                            http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              LY is only a suppling exercise because there is no bend through the body. SI/T/R are suppling exercises as well as engaging exercises because of the added bending which can help to develop collection. Because of the lack of bend in LY the horse can easily lose their balance (onto the shoulders) as well. The use of any lateral work is of course only as good as its reasoned application.

                              The use of SI to correct the walk is to gather the hindlegs correctly under mass, and of course straightness (and control of the horse's shoulder is necessary. It is not the slow shoulders which are the problem in most case, it is the blocking of the hindlegs (by hurrying them) into a rigid hand connection which puts the horse too much onto the shoulders. In order to correct the lateral walk, the rider has to again divide the 12 34 into clear 1 2 3 4. That is why counted walk works. It is also why shoulder in works to get/engage the 1 (ie inside) hindleg, then comes the (inside) foreleg, then the outside hind, then the outside fore, it simply seperates the footfalls one again.

                              Most of the problems with lateral walks come from asking for a too big walk and not allowing it to happen the 1 and 2 run into one another. So the first job of the rider is to reestablich purity THEN to allow a bigger walk. Riders must remember that walk is the last gait to be collected. When judging, many horses should an 8+ for walks, but as soon as the rider picks up the reins and takes hold of the horse, the hindlegs do not literally know what to do, and asking for a bigger walk at that point will only make it worse.

                              Riders must learn how to walk on contact w/o preventing the telescoping/bascule of the horses balancing rod (aka the neck). IF they do not the horse freezes the neck/shortens it/and starts to look like a pecking rooster with its head (going up and down). Early freedom to use the body with a rider who has an elastic connection is everything.

                              Shoulder in does repair the purity, but if the rider keeps the same behavior which created the pace in the first place (fixed connection, asking for the horse be too quick behind before it is elastically connected and in balance), then nothing will change.
                              I.D.E.A. yoda

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                I am not going say more about the LY/SI debate than I find LY to be useful but disengaging of the hind end. And because of this, I don't think they are helpful with the walk once the shoulder is flexible. I'd rather use SI (with the outside shoulder being the one that is in), if the shoulder is moving freely.

                                It is important to understand how the neck, poll and jaw are connected at the walk and how your hand should move. I find thinking about train wheels that are connected by a rod that circulates with rotation to be a good visual metaphor.

                                The best thing I have found for engaging the abs at the walk with a lower level horse is serpentines. In a large (20x60) school, doing them starting with 4 loops, progressing gradually to 8 or 10 loops is very beneficial. If you feel that the horse loses connection, brief halts at the center line, with good, forward transitions up and down, can help. Really focus on keeping the horse off the forehand and connecting the inside aids to outside rein as you ride the curves.

                                Good luck __________________
                                See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
                                  Shoulder in does repair the purity, but if the rider keeps the same behavior which created the pace in the first place (fixed connection, asking for the horse be too quick behind before it is elastically connected and in balance), then nothing will change.
                                  Thanks, great post. It seems very easy to induce crookedness in the walk, particularly with a horse that naturally reaches way forward from behind.
                                  Ring the bells that still can ring
                                  Forget your perfect offering
                                  There is a crack in everything
                                  That's how the light gets in.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    this link is relevent- for schoulder ins read links as there are diagrams on how to perfrom the 1st one posted by myself is the correct one ie best one
                                    http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...d.php?t=172820

                                    read all comments

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