• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Sometimes it really is just training, in fact, mostly it iis training

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Sometimes it really is just training, in fact, mostly it iis training

    It is a aspect of the concern for animals, and a good one, that is demonstrated when a question is asked on the bulletin board and the poster is expected to provide:
    a mineral list
    a nutrtionist report
    a vet certificate
    a saddle fittes proof
    a chiropractor massage therapist and horse communicator

    to prove that they have properly taken care of their horse before anyone actually offers training and behaviour modifciation advice.

    If a horse kicks at me, i modify her behaviour first, because i do not care if a T rex drops out of the sky and attacks the horse may not kick me... then i look to sources of the behavior.

    Sometimes, its just training, in act most of the time, it is just training.

  • #2
    I guess this is directed at me (although I did not ask for all of the things above).
    In my experience, when mares are cranky and touchy about leg, they are often sore or have hormonal issues. Sometimes ulcers or sore ribs can manifest the same way.
    I think we owe it to the horse to make sure they are not in pain before we demand a certain behaviour. I do not tolerate dangerous behaviour toward me for any reason, but I certainly won't keep pushing an issue if I am not sure there isn't a physical basis.
    I am particularly cranky about this issue after watching a QH mare at my barn be beaten for lashing at her owner when being saddled and when leg was put on. Eventually the mare would be afraid to lash out and would stand and nod her head and pin her ears and grind her teeth and lash her tail. Owner took her to a clinic where the clinician recommended she have a vet look at the horse, who immediately found a large, painful, cystic ovary.
    Sometimes it is just training, but since they can't talk, be owe it to them to make sure that they are physically comfortable. After all, we ask them to work. They would just wander around and graze all day as nature intended if we left them alone.
    As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

    Comment


    • #3
      There can be a difference between training problems and vices. Both are usually caused by a lack of communication or observation from the rider/trainer. Many times what starts out as an ignored discomfort or frustration for the horse becomes a training problem.
      Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

      Comment


      • #4
        Training shouldn't involve a whip and a chair.

        Being a trainer involves more than an ability to sit on a horse and survive. Training should involve the ability to see a horse, to read that horse's body language. This takes time, and many horses for some. Others get it.
        Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

        Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

        Comment


        • #5
          While rough around the edges, I appreciate this post

          "Pat the horse; kick yourself" - Carl Hester

          Comment


          • #6
            There are different types of trainers:

            Some that believe in the honest and try of the horse, and when that goes missing, look to themselves for the solution (riding, health, care, soundness).

            Some that believe in the domination and submission of the horse despite lack of riding skill, health, care and soundness.

            The latter is the easier, but the former the more fulfilling.
            Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by CHT View Post
              There are different types of trainers:

              Some that believe in the honest and try of the horse, and when that goes missing, look to themselves for the solution (riding, health, care, soundness).

              Some that believe in the domination and submission of the horse despite lack of riding skill, health, care and soundness.

              The latter is the easier, but the former the more fulfilling.
              Then there are those of us who started out with the former outlook but over the years have learned that most of the time you do have to be assertive through the "bad". While I will always try to rule out anything physical first, often times the benefit of the doubt only wastes time and draws out the problem over a longer period. Sometimes, training just ain't no fun.


              Edited to add: I love your tag line!!!

              "Pat the horse; kick yourself" - Carl Hester

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by CrowneDragon View Post
                I guess this is directed at me (although I did not ask for all of the things above).
                In my experience, when mares are cranky and touchy about leg, they are often sore or have hormonal issues. Sometimes ulcers or sore ribs can manifest the same way.
                I think we owe it to the horse to make sure they are not in pain before we demand a certain behaviour. I do not tolerate dangerous behaviour toward me for any reason, but I certainly won't keep pushing an issue if I am not sure there isn't a physical basis.
                I am particularly cranky about this issue after watching a QH mare at my barn be beaten for lashing at her owner when being saddled and when leg was put on. Eventually the mare would be afraid to lash out and would stand and nod her head and pin her ears and grind her teeth and lash her tail. Owner took her to a clinic where the clinician recommended she have a vet look at the horse, who immediately found a large, painful, cystic ovary.
                Sometimes it is just training, but since they can't talk, be owe it to them to make sure that they are physically comfortable. After all, we ask them to work. They would just wander around and graze all day as nature intended if we left them alone.
                NO, not directed at anyone in particular, the result of reading many threads, where the OP has to respond to every single possibility

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  You see the interesting thing about this is that immediately, because i am not pandering to the Peta like expectations, it is assumed that i am a harsh trainer, which i am not. If a horse comes into my space, i back them out of my space. I take my time training horses, I use the clicker, when appropriate, and have had the pleasurable opportinity to see many horses go from frantic mistrusting animals around people, to horses to love and trust, hey, even horses who enjoy work.


                  train your horses people, modify their behavior, It means you have to modify yours, and learn something, do it. But to assume that you can continue to behave in exactly the same way, and the horse will improve if you get the vet/ chiro/ nutritionist/ dentist is ridiculous.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This thread reminds me of that public radio show Car Talk, when the guys ask "What color is your car?" because they have no clue what's wrong with it.
                    A helmet saved my life.

                    2017 goal: learn to ride like TheHorseProblem, er, a barn rat!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by chisamba View Post
                      You see the interesting thing about this is that immediately, because i am not pandering to the Peta like expectations, it is assumed that i am a harsh trainer, which i am not. If a horse comes into my space, i back them out of my space. I take my time training horses, I use the clicker, when appropriate, and have had the pleasurable opportinity to see many horses go from frantic mistrusting animals around people, to horses to love and trust, hey, even horses who enjoy work.


                      train your horses people, modify their behavior, It means you have to modify yours, and learn something, do it. But to assume that you can continue to behave in exactly the same way, and the horse will improve if you get the vet/ chiro/ nutritionist/ dentist is ridiculous.
                      It sounds to me like you are speaking to specific threads. I don't know what they are. Maybe if you're clearer, I'd know where you are coming from better. In my experience, many horse training issues do have a root in physical issues. Sometimes, the owner can afford to pinpoint the issue, many cannot. Sure, many times the problem is training. And many times, the horse has a physical issue. What is wrong with ruling out physical issues?
                      Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Many of us have seen both sides of this issue so it doesn't really help to make definitive generalized statements one way or the other .

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Angelico View Post
                          Then there are those of us who started out with the former outlook but over the years have learned that most of the time you do have to be assertive through the "bad".
                          Interesting, as I thought that it would be just the opposite for most.

                          We start out all energetic and hungry for power and find horses perfect for that, but then as we mature the wind goes out of our sails when we begin to realize that anyone can dominate a horse, because horses don't want to be dominant.

                          So all that time we thought we were really something because we could push our horses around, we hadn't really accomplished much of anything because anyone can push a horse around. :-)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You always look for a physical reason why the horse is acting out, but I do agree that a horse shouldn't be able to continue to act out dangerously in the meanwhile. And if you suspect the horse is hurting, then you probably shouldn't work it.
                            I always expect manners when in hand, no sense getting barn staff, your vet, farrier or yourself hurt when trying to treat something. Horses don't want to be dominant, but it takes some longer than others to figure that out (like my mare).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think the sad thing is that when someone posts on the internet about a resistance problem, the go-to assumption is that they might not have eliminated a physical problem. That should be as basic an element of horsemanship as "first check that the horse has four legs"... it shouldn't have to always be stated.

                              Originally posted by CHT View Post
                              There are different types of trainers:

                              Some that believe in the honest and try of the horse, and when that goes missing, look to themselves for the solution (riding, health, care, soundness).

                              Some that believe in the domination and submission of the horse despite lack of riding skill, health, care and soundness.

                              The latter is the easier, but the former the more fulfilling.
                              I reject this dichotomy. The first "type" implies that horses are never naturally naughty, lazy, or disobedient. The second suggests that prioritising and developing a horse's submission (one of the collective marks in dressage) goes hand in hand with ignorance or lack of skill.

                              Sometimes horses are naughty. I think all the advances we've made in health care and technology in the last decade are amazing... but that doesn't mean that a perfectly sound, fit and happy horse can't present ongoing resistance under saddle - and too many riders, IMO, lack the horsemanship to know the difference, and know how to effectively deal with true temperament-driven resistance.

                              I see what Chisamba is driving at, and I mostly agree. Sometimes responses about specific and associated ailments are helpful, such as the ones about ovarian issues in mares... and of course we should all be helping our animals in every way possible, including regular physical exams and treatments. However, I've seen too many amateurs end up with spoiled, unfit, under-schooled horses who have little resale value because they constantly back off ANY work for every small soreness or complaint identified by the therapist-du-jour - that IS a welfare issue, because it plummets a horse's potential sale price. (Controversial perhaps, but in Europe right now things are getting scary and I've begun to realise that one aspect of welfare is the potential future usefulness of the horses we own, even when we don't imagine the need to ever part with them).
                              Proud COTH lurker since 2001.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Sometimes, its just training, in act most of the time, it is just training.

                                Shouldn't that be lack of training?
                                Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by CFFarm View Post
                                  Sometimes, its just training, in act most of the time, it is just training.

                                  Shouldn't that be lack of training?
                                  lol!

                                  My point is clumsily made, a friend of mine commented directly to me and said, what you should have said was,

                                  if you cannot modify your training to be effective, no amount of profesional advice will help, but the horse should always get the professional help they need.

                                  Is that better, lol! communication is not always my best skill.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I have found that unless the OP provides photo copied proof of their vet report nobody will give them any training advice. When they do it is suggested that they get a different vet!

                                    I always specifiy my advice with "assuming horse is sound...." since so often the OP never gets any training advice at all.

                                    In fact, I have noticed that some posters tend to have the exact same medical problem suggestion on every thread.

                                    "I'm having trouble getting my horse to halt square, can anyone help?"

                                    - have you tried cutting soy out of his diet?

                                    "my horse flips his head in his upward transitions, how can I keep the connection?"

                                    - have you tried cutting soy out of his diet?

                                    "My horse pins his ears and doesn't go forward."

                                    - have you tried cutting soy out of his diet?
                                    http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Well, in my case, none of my horses EVER acted up or out because of lack of training. They always had good reasons that were always physical, sometimes as a result of bad training or training that didn't suit them.

                                      But to suggest that a horse that acts up just needs more training is doing a disservice to the animals we hold in our trust.

                                      Case in point...horse didn't want farrier to lift front foot and twist the leg to get it between his knees; snapped it back several times. Training? Pain? Vet was called. No pain in the joints. His advice? Chewing relaxes. Give him a treat as the farrier reaches and manipulates the foot/leg. Will be doing that on June 11, with carrots; the kind with the greens still on.
                                      Ride like you mean it.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Oh my...this assumes way too much.

                                        Quote:

                                        train your horses people, modify their behavior, It means you have to modify yours, and learn something, do it. But to assume that you can continue to behave in exactly the same way, and the horse will improve if you get the vet/ chiro/ nutritionist/ dentist is ridiculous.
                                        Ride like you mean it.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X