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Sometimes it really is just training, in fact, mostly it iis training

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  • http://youtu.be/VBtFEa7uppQ

    This is a little video of my stargrazer Arab Working thru the resistance as Grayarabpony is talking about. He's beginning to reach and look for the contact instead of dropping his back and trying to get above it. My rein is fairly long but not loopy. I'm not cranking him into it and he's relaxed.

    PS: Rider in her sixties also, 30lbs overweight (work in progress) arthritic and damage to right side.
    Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

    Comment


    • Video is private, CFF.
      __________________________
      "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
      the best day in ten years,
      you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

      Comment


      • Fixed, I think.

        http://youtu.be/VBtFEa7uppQ
        Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by CFFarm View Post
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOExc2J0-tY

          A legend in her own mind.....

          Best of luck!
          cute horse, nothing awful as a pleasure ride.

          that ride does not meet dressage standards as written in the rule book, but the horse looks happy enough.

          I am pretty sure that was my contact consistency a few years back...but I chose to listen, take lessons, and came to realize that contact is not mean, cruel or too demanding of the horses. Barring some conformational fault that makes coming round painful for the horse, my horses seem just as happy with their lot in life as they did back when I was much less consistent and thought steady contact was mean.

          Comment


          • Well....I read the whole thread. Hard to put me at a loss for words but gosh...this comes close.

            I am Kande04's age, more or less, and what I see is just a wannabe who justifies her lack of work ethics with her 'theory'. That's all.

            I've worked really hard to match my horse's needs for comfort when I'm riding him. To match his need for consistency, support and all that goes into that with legs, seat and hands. To learn how much is too much; how much is not enough. How to support him as we go into a corner, thru the corner and when to back off for the straight rail and how much to back off. There is so much to riding.

            I find it odd that all she wants to do is sit on the horse and not participate. That's what puzzles me. When my horse takes up contact with me, I can feel it thru his back,, even down in his pasterns, his suppleness and the distinct feeling that WE are riding TOGETHER.

            How sad that Kande is missing out on all of that. I watched her video. After halting at x, she just sits there and waits for the horse to move off...as if he doesn't have to if he doesn't want to...either way is fine with her.

            She refuses to let her horse have his part of the conversation and she refuses to talk to him. They are separate entities doing something at the same time and neither has any investment in the other. Sad for him.


            Kande, if you REALLY want to experience a onemanship with your horse, you will quit being merely a passenger and ENGAGE your horse.

            I think it's sad.
            Last edited by ezduzit; Jun. 16, 2013, 04:17 PM.
            Ride like you mean it.

            Comment


            • ezduzit, well said
              Humans don’t mind duress, in fact they thrive on it. What they mind is not feeling necessary. –Sebastian Junger

              Comment


              • yes I think ez has hit the proverbial nail on the noggin.

                Kande wants the horse to just offer up correct training without being trained,

                The horse should read the rider's mind and just do it.


                I think it's the clicker training mentality- horse will just do anything to get a reward. Like trick training.

                It's a different world away from training the horse and rider to understand the communication of aids in the dressage sense aka training pyramid and fails to recognize that the horse likes to participate with a kind and clear trainer . They are not mind readers, however.

                There is no point analyzing K though. She's said over and over she is not interested in learning about dressage. She knows it all and does not trust trainers or judges or anyone trying to help her on the net.

                walk away....

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ezduzit View Post
                  I watched her video. After halting at x, she just sits there and waits for the horse to move off...as if he doesn't have to if he doesn't want to...either way is fine with her.
                  I'm guessing that you're looking at the 2012 video that someone else posted? If so it's true that he didn't have to move off in any time frame, because we weren't there to try to get a good score on a test because we were there to see the sights.

                  I went again last weekend and he started cantering when we were supposed to be trotting across the diagonal, and because I felt that his brain was already fried enough I just let him go. The judge was laughing about it afterwards (ride-review-ride) because she said it was such a nice canter depart that if it'd been where it was supposed to have been she would have given it a 9. :-)

                  She was a lot of fun and we worked hard and had a great day.

                  Kande, if you REALLY want to experience a onemanship with your horse, you will quit being merely a passenger and ENGAGE your horse.

                  I think it's sad.
                  I think it's sad that horses are ridden with aids that are so strong that they're visible on video. It also makes me sad that horses who are clearly distressed in an unfamiliar environment are pushed hard to perform anyway, because the rider wants to get a good score on a test.

                  What ever happened to the idea of invisible aids?

                  Not that all horses are pushed hard of course, but I do find it sad when they are, and feel guilty when I get caught up in it.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by CFFarm View Post
                    http://youtu.be/VBtFEa7uppQ

                    This is a little video of my stargrazer Arab Working thru the resistance as Grayarabpony is talking about. He's beginning to reach and look for the contact instead of dropping his back and trying to get above it. My rein is fairly long but not loopy. I'm not cranking him into it and he's relaxed.

                    PS: Rider in her sixties also, 30lbs overweight (work in progress) arthritic and damage to right side.
                    Love to see the progress during the video, although I have to confess with my almost 60 year old eyes, it was hard for me to see the video (next time, please ask the videographer to zoom in). Please post more.

                    I wish I could get some good videos to share and critique. I have a good camera but I haven't figured out how to upload to YouTube yet.

                    Thanks for sharing!

                    Comment


                    • Obviously Kande does not understand the meaning of "engage" when it comes to horse and rider. It done together. The rider asks, the horse responds. The rider quits asking and assume a support role.

                      Because horses don't speak words and don't understand very many of ours, they are left to guess what we want. When they guess right, we let them know YES YES YES...Exactly...good boy/girl. They like that. It makes them proud and confident: "Oh I know what a leg on my side means". They understand and move over.

                      Somehow Kande has gotten the idea that training is cruel punishment. Horses actually LOVE understanding what the rider is talking about and love the confidence of responding correctly. Nothing cruel about a half-halt, done correctly with legs/seat/position (which ever gets the desired response) and hands. Riding into contact is not meaningless leg pressure with a stiff hand on the bit. It is a subtle art that combines several bits and pieces. The end goal is self-carriage. You've never experienced the feeling of guiding your horse into self-carriage, helping him maintain that and the joy of working with him.

                      I don't intend to try and change your mind...I never argue with people who have made up their mind. But, in my opinion, you don't do anything of the 'work' of riding because you are afraid of failing. So rather than try and fail, you just don't bother. That's okay. You're not hurting your horse. It's not dressage...we all know that. In fact, you know that too.

                      So whether its for the sake of the argument or the attention you're getting, whatever, you are not a rider and will never become one.

                      So enjoy your rides, nothing wrong with hacking around the dressage ring. The show is just as happy to take your money as anyone else's.

                      I do have to ask how you feel about steering. Isn't it fairly harsh to make them go on an artificial pattern just because you want to go that way? And I have to ask in what way was your horse 'fried'? And why not even attempt to execute the test correctly? What is your purpose for paying the money to ride the test if he can do anything he wants to do at any point? I seriously doubt you have pushed a horse "hard" or even wanted a correct 'answer' from your horse. Clearly a trot can turn into a canter...whatev....and it's fine with you. And if your horse had stop and refused to budge, would you still be sitting there?

                      You're a hoot!
                      Ride like you mean it.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by kande04 View Post
                        .I think it's sad that horses are ridden with aids that are so strong that they're visible on video. What ever happened to the idea of invisible aids?
                        I don't know where the notion of "invisible" aids came from: I'm 68 and I ain't never seen them, or unicorns for that matter. I suspect it's a case of do as I say rather than do as I do. As a goal, they are admirable, but if there isn't a change in the rider's position how the heck is the horse supposed to know to make a change in what it's doing?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by alicen View Post
                          I don't know where the notion of "invisible" aids came from: I'm 68 and I ain't never seen them, or unicorns for that matter. I suspect it's a case of do as I say rather than do as I do. As a goal, they are admirable, but if there isn't a change in the rider's position how the heck is the horse supposed to know to make a change in what it's doing?
                          <SNORT>

                          This^^^ cracked me up!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SaddleFitterVA View Post
                            cute horse, nothing awful as a pleasure ride.

                            that ride does not meet dressage standards as written in the rule book, but the horse looks happy enough.

                            I am pretty sure that was my contact consistency a few years back...but I chose to listen, take lessons, and came to realize that contact is not mean, cruel or too demanding of the horses. Barring some conformational fault that makes coming round painful for the horse, my horses seem just as happy with their lot in life as they did back when I was much less consistent and thought steady contact was mean.
                            That's pretty consistent with the way I feel about contact. I don't think horses mind some degree of contact once they get used to it, although I also realize that horses have evolved to be stoic so could be suffering way more than we think they are.

                            What I think the biggest issue for horses likely is however, is fear, which by comparison makes their reactions to physical discomfort seem so mild that it's easy to interpret them as neutral, or positive.

                            And since we can't know we can only guess.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by alicen View Post
                              As a goal, they are admirable, but if there isn't a change in the rider's position how the heck is the horse supposed to know to make a change in what it's doing?
                              Are you saying that you don't believe that horses can feel changes in position even though you can't see them?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ezduzit View Post

                                Somehow Kande has gotten the idea that training is cruel punishment.
                                Really? Would you care to quote where I said that, or are you reading others' interpretations of what they think I'm saying and accepting those as accurate representations of what I actually said?

                                I think the reasons these boards have quote features is to try to avoid that, but for some unknown reason some refuse to use them and instead appear to be very invested in putting their own spin on what others say.

                                And I have to ask in what way was your horse 'fried'?
                                My horse was fried because he was distracted by the unaccustomed activity around him, which was why he was there.

                                And why not even attempt to execute the test correctly?
                                Because he was too distracted to be able to respond to the kind of aids I want to use.

                                What is your purpose for paying the money to ride the test if he can do anything he wants to do at any point?
                                It's called desensitizing, which is, or at least should be, a gradual process. Otherwise it would be flooding, which has undesirable side effects.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by kande04 View Post
                                  Are you saying that you don't believe that horses can feel changes in position even though you can't see them?
                                  I said just what I meant to say. And at the level at which you are riding, you wouldn't understand.
                                  eta: There's invisible and then there's non-existent.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Winding Down View Post
                                    I wish I could get some good videos to share and critique. I have a good camera but I haven't figured out how to upload to YouTube yet.
                                    Do you know how to get them off your camera and edit them? You don't have to edit them if you plan ahead when you're taping, or only download the parts you want to upload to utube.

                                    Utube will convert a lot of different formats now, which makes it much easier.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by kande04 View Post
                                      Because he was too distracted to be able to respond to the kind of aids I want to use.
                                      Right. It's about what you want to do rather than what is right for the comprehension of the horse.

                                      And I'm out of here.

                                      Comment


                                      • So you think that when a horse is distracted you should just let him go with whatever his focus is. Am I hearing that correctly?

                                        When my horse is distracted, I make a circle or change directions or change gaits. Gets his focus back on me. In a test I would have felt the transition coming and given him a bit of a half halt and made sure I was sitting in the correct position. You were off in your position which allowed him to pick up the canter. These things don't happen in a vacuum.

                                        I don't know why you think cues and aids are invisible. When I want my horse to jog (western) I raise my hand about 1/2 inch and tense my calf muscles. The hand movement is visible. When we lope, I actually take up the reins a bit more with my other hand (very visible) at the same time I give him a half halt and leg cue. Nothing invisible about that...nor cruel or negative. It's called collection. You will have to have contact if you want to achieve collection. I don't make the rules, the horse makes the rules. It's how they work. Our job as riders is to work with them and learn how they work so we can have them do what we want when we want.

                                        I enjoy how much you are revealing about yourself.
                                        Ride like you mean it.

                                        Comment


                                        • I re read some of your statements. Wow...can't get enough of this stuff.

                                          Flooding? Distracted? Horses are curious and flighty by nature. If you don't insist he pay attention to you when you are riding, you are going to get hurt. Gradually? How about NEVER. He will never pay full attention to you.

                                          The age old question of all riders at some point is "Why is he doing this?"

                                          The age old answer is "Because he can".
                                          Ride like you mean it.

                                          Comment

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