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Sometimes it really is just training, in fact, mostly it iis training

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  • Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
    She would have the independent seat and hands if she'd just relax her waist and elbows more.
    I think I actually do have independent hands--as long as I don't get my horse moving with more energy than my seat can handle.

    I had a lesson from a JCR student years ago, and the first thing he told me was not to worry about where my hands were because what was important was the quality of the contact. So yes, I do carry my hands wherever I need to to maintain the quality of the contact (as best I can), but in spite of what others think they're seeing, it's not because I can't keep them steadier, but because that's not the way I want to train this horse.

    My idea, which seems to be working out now that he's calmed down enough for it to work out, is to allow him to find his balance without trying to stabilize his head with the reins, because I think that as he is able to sustain his balance then the position and stability of his head and neck will reflect that balance. So as he becomes balanced enough his head and neck will stabilize without me needing to hold it in place, which I'm hoping will help avoid the dreaded btv. :-)

    A horse can be straight and forward and going correctly on a loose rein. Kande is right about that. That's not dressage though. The input from the rider and accuracy of riding needed for the horse to seek contact isn't there.
    I don't believe that there's a magic configuration of the reins that determines what's dressage, or Dressage, and what isn't. Racinet did a lot of work on looped reins, and while those who think that dressage is about a different kind of contact will say that he wasn't practicing dressage because his horses didn't seek the bit, many thought he was practicing dressage even though his horses didn't seek the bit.

    Comment


    • I tried to resist but had to share this since earlier in this thread Endurance horses were held up as some kind of beacon of soundness compared to our poor crippled dressage horses. Apparently in the real world they actually need a lot of help to be that way. From Eurodressage:

      FEI Holds another Round Table Conference about its most doping-polluted discipline, Endurance!

      FEI President HRH Princess Haya has asked Andrew Finding, a board member of the European Equestrian Federation, to chair a round table session that will look into areas of concern within the sport of Endurance.

      The FEI has invited representatives from the Swiss and United Arab Emirates National Federations, and the European Equestrian Federation to attend the round table, which will be held at FEI Headquarters in Lausanne (SUI). The Chair of the FEI Endurance Committee Brian Sheahan will attend the session, along with FEI Secretary General Ingmar De Vos. A date for the round table will be fixed shortly.

      “The objective of this round table session is to bring these parties together in order to have an open discussion about the situation, to create a better understanding of the specific problem areas within the sport and to receive eventual recommendations about potential further steps that can be undertaken,” Princess Haya said. “We are very happy that Andrew Finding, with all his years of experience in equestrian sport, has agreed to act as chair of this important session.”

      Andrew Finding, who is also Secretary General of the British Equestrian Federation, commented: “I am honoured to support the FEI in working with our friends and colleagues to find a solution to the challenges that we are currently facing in Endurance sport.”

      Comment


      • I'm sorry, but is kande04 for real?

        Comment


        • So yes, I do carry my hands wherever I need to to maintain the quality of the contact (as best I can), but in spite of what others think they're seeing, it's not because I can't keep them steadier, but because that's not the way I want to train this horse.
          er..uhuh

          Comment


          • Originally posted by kande04 View Post
            My idea, which seems to be working out now that he's calmed down enough for it to work out, is to allow him to find his balance without trying to stabilize his head with the reins, because I think that as he is able to sustain his balance then the position and stability of his head and neck will reflect that balance. So as he becomes balanced enough his head and neck will stabilize without me needing to hold it in place, which I'm hoping will help avoid the dreaded btv. :-)
            Butbutbut.... contact does NOT = "stabilizing the head". Not at all. It is communication. It is, to paraphrase a very lovely clinician I had the privelege of working with, "a way to connect with the musco-skeletal structure of the horse". Contact doesn't hold, it guides. It sets boundaries, and it helps the horse to progress because the horse knows where the lines are.

            You have to work just as hard as your horse to acheive balance and self-carriage under saddle - he can't do it on his own. Together is how you progress. Only providing input through the reins when you think it is "necessary" is like trying to carry on a conversation with someone whose cell signal keeps fading in and out. It's frustrating and not very productive. The same goes for input from the leg, by the way.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sunsets View Post
              Contact doesn't hold, it guides. It sets boundaries, and it helps the horse to progress because the horse knows where the lines are.
              I agree that it does set boundaries, and one of those boundaries is how much the horse is allowed to move his head and neck.

              Not that I don't agree with what you say, but the whole idea of starting out with a steady contact while the horse is still trying to figure out what any contact means just seems like way too much, way too soon, to me. Not that more advanced riders can't do that, but to teach riders who are still trying to develop a better seat to use that kind of contact just seems completely wrong to me.

              Comment


              • Kande I'm sorry but you have a completely incorrect understanding of contact... you seem to think it comes all from the rider and not from the horse, and that it is about holding rather than following and supporting (and if a rider isn't capable of following and supporting, what makes you think they have the skill to school a green horse in the first place?). You clearly need to learn the fundamentals of dressage theory before you continue to embarrass yourself all over the internet. I get it - you are learning new things and you're excited about different 'schools', etc, and your willingness to question things will stand you in good stead later... but you'll get so much farther if you stay quieter, listen more, observe a lot, read widely, and then develop opinions based on real knowledge instead of deeply flawed and shallow interpretations. Until you reach that point, your reformist zeal is just plain weird.

                Now you can choose to be offended and dismissive of this post OR you can look at is as an opportunity to discover what you don't already know, and then go out and chase that knowledge down - it's entirely up to you.

                C'est fini.
                Proud COTH lurker since 2001.

                Comment


                • This is nothing new, guys this will go on round and round for 10 more pages. Its the same every thread with Kande.

                  Comment


                  • In defense of Kande. I do like and appreciate her enthusiasm and thirst for discussion. And she has a lovely horse in the videos. He looks like he has much potential. And she sounds intelligent and articulate. So we are starting with a trainable pair.

                    Now for the confrontation. Kande, you will benefit greatly from taking lessons from a dressage trainer who is out there and successful. You obviously want and like doing this. But your videos show an uneducated dressage rider and a horse that is not forward or correct.

                    I'm no top class rider, but i am an upper level eventer who has been in horses for almost 50 years. I have trained with many who are highly respected across disciplines. I've started many many horses of horses over the years. I'm not terrific but I do have observations that I'm confident are accurate.

                    I start horses, like all trainers in our sport, with lots of ground work. The day I get in the saddle, there is contact, feel, and mutual communication through the reins. I am NOT unique in this approach. Every reputable trainer out there starts pretty much the same way. Forwardness is also crucial to moving up the training scale.

                    You are wasting your time, riding the way I see you in the video. All you are getting, training-wise, is a few wet saddle blankets. If you want to ride properly, get some help.

                    You are obviously smart and articulate. So give it up, give in, and try learning from all those who are giving you time and energy here.

                    These folks here are right. And you're not. But you and your horse have lots of potential, so you're quite fortunate.

                    Comment


                    • she's been told countless times on TOB. She won't give in or take lessons. thats the point I was trying to make.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Lost_at_C View Post
                        Kande.....Until you reach that point, your reformist zeal is just plain weird.
                        I'm fine with being weird, as I think people should be who they are and not try to pretend they're someone they're not. (It never works, anyway.) So the internet is perfect for me, because I can talk about my weird ideas as much as I want and no one has to read it, so only those who want to read it and talk about it do so. (I have no sympathy for those who complain about it yet continue to read it, as that's got to be pretty close to the epitome of stupidity!)

                        Now you can choose to be offended and dismissive of this post OR you can look at is as an opportunity to discover what you don't already know, and then go out and chase that knowledge down - it's entirely up to you.
                        I think that's the part I love so much: the freedom to choose what I want to believe, and what I want to do with those beliefs. I also think it's the reason I don't want a trainer, because then I'd have to do it their way instead of the way I want to do it.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by kande04 View Post
                          I'm fine with being weird, as I think people should be who they are and not try to pretend they're someone they're not. (It never works, anyway.) So the internet is perfect for me, because I can talk about my weird ideas as much as I want and no one has to read it, so only those who want to read it and talk about it do so. (I have no sympathy for those who complain about it yet continue to read it, as that's got to be pretty close to the epitome of stupidity!)



                          I think that's the part I love so much: the freedom to choose what I want to believe, and what I want to do with those beliefs. I also think it's the reason I don't want a trainer, because then I'd have to do it their way instead of the way I want to do it.
                          Oh my. So you're not into learning etc. you're into your own thing. Okay.

                          So I just totally wasted my time, trying to help you out.

                          Narcissism.... That's what we call this in my field.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by kande04 View Post
                            I think that's the part I love so much: the freedom to choose what I want to believe, and what I want to do with those beliefs. I also think it's the reason I don't want a trainer, because then I'd have to do it their way instead of the way I want to do it.
                            Have you ever considered the fact that your HORSE, who has to cart you around while you choose to believe what you want to believe, may appreciate it if you just let yourself be guided by some of the knowledge that has been accumulated and passed down in the thousands of years since the first Mongolian pulled a horse off the steppes?

                            Maybe he would prefer not being a guinea pig while you "believe what you want to believe," re-invent pre-existing concepts and do trial and error.

                            Do you think he would rather be piloted by my friend who was doing such a lovely job with her 4yo earlier in this thread, or by you? Which ride would your HORSE prefer?
                            The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                            Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                            Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                            The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Winding Down View Post
                              But you and your horse have lots of potential, so you're quite fortunate.
                              Thanks for the advice, as I found it well balanced and insightful. I think you might be assuming that I'm looking for the same things that most of the others here are looking for though, and I don't think I am. I'm much too relaxed about my riding to be interested in taking the most direct route to Rome, as I'm enjoying this winding, convoluted route so much more.

                              So different from when I was younger and somehow managed to ride more often in spite of the full time job and family! Today I'm not even planning to ride at all because it's sprinkling out there. :-)

                              Comment


                              • Kande has been doing this arrogant-contrarian thing on the other board for a long time. I don't know why people keep trying to reason with her, because she's never going to change -- she wants to do it her way more than she wants anything else, including (it seems at times) what's best for her horse. She's determined to march to the beat of her own drum, no matter how far astray it takes her. It is what it is.

                                That said, she sometimes does provoke good conversations that *I* at least learn a lot from. So the wisdom provided by the many exasperated posters in Kande's wake might never reach the intended target, but some of us are still benefitting! Cloud/silver lining.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by kande04 View Post
                                  I agree that it does set boundaries, and one of those boundaries is how much the horse is allowed to move his head and neck.
                                  Oh my.

                                  Starting out with a steady contact while the horse is still trying to figure out what any contact means just seems like way too much, way too soon, to me. Not that more advanced riders can't do that, but to teach riders who are still trying to develop a better seat to use that kind of contact just seems completely wrong to me.
                                  Even a less advanced rider should know how to present the bit to the horse. YOU don't take contact, the horse does.

                                  Originally posted by Lost_at_C View Post
                                  Kande I'm sorry but you have a completely incorrect understanding of contact... you seem to think it comes all from the rider and not from the horse, and that it is about holding rather than following and supporting (and if a rider isn't capable of following and supporting, what makes you think they have the skill to school a green horse in the first place?).
                                  Yup. My point precisely.

                                  Originally posted by kande04 View Post

                                  (I have no sympathy for those who complain about it yet continue to read it, as that's got to be pretty close to the epitome of stupidity!)


                                  I think that's the part I love so much: the freedom to choose what I want to believe, and what I want to do with those beliefs. I also think it's the reason I don't want a trainer, because then I'd have to do it their way instead of the way I want to do it.
                                  Here's another aspect of stupidity -- doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting a different outcome.

                                  You're certainly free to carry on riding according to your beliefs. But you won't make any progress. If you're happy with your riding as evidenced in the video you posted, which shows a horse that is not connected or working through his back, you'll be just fine.
                                  __________________________
                                  "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
                                  the best day in ten years,
                                  you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Winding Down View Post
                                    Oh my. So you're not into learning etc. you're into your own thing. Okay.

                                    So I just totally wasted my time, trying to help you out.
                                    Why, do you think I'm the only one who reads your posts? You're not posting on a public forum to only help out one reader, are you?

                                    My posts and videos are to stimulate discussion, get ideas, and run my ideas by others. Or as I said in another post, I'm interested in ideas, not directions from those who want to tell me which choices I should make. Not that I have any problem with people trying to tell me what I should choose to do, because the information and ideas that interest me often come along with the directions, but I do find the defensiveness just a tad weird. :-)

                                    Comment


                                    • Wow. Kande, you can "Believe" that you should be driving on the left side of the road all you want, but that doesn't make it "Correct". (Here in the USA, anyway...)

                                      It could even be harmful. But, as others have said, you will continue to drive on the left side of the road, no matter what. You will never get beyond training level till you learn to drive on the "right" side of the road. Well, you might call what you're doing "First Level", but no one will believe you.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by suzier444 View Post
                                        Kande has been doing this arrogant-contrarian thing on the other board for a long time. I don't know why people keep trying to reason with her, because she's never going to change -- she wants to do it her way more than she wants anything else, including (it seems at times) what's best for her horse. She's determined to march to the beat of her own drum, no matter how far astray it takes her. It is what it is.

                                        That said, she sometimes does provoke good conversations that *I* at least learn a lot from. So the wisdom provided by the many exasperated posters in Kande's wake might never reach the intended target, but some of us are still benefitting! Cloud/silver lining.
                                        So I will "out myself" here and admit that I'm a psychologist. On boards like this, People usually share what they do as a means to engage in communication with others. I suggest that Kande start a journal or a blog as I don't think she sees the other drummers as having beats worth listening to. Why post at all if the goal is to listen only to your own music?

                                        I think we see the total disregard of our feedback as an insult. It's like going to a potluck and only eating the food you brought. WhAts up with that?

                                        I was late to this (potluck) party. Is there another one worth crashing? I'm not picky.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by mp View Post
                                          Even a less advanced rider should know how to present the bit to the horse. YOU don't take contact, the horse does.
                                          So all those instructors who have told me to "take up a contact with the bit" and "ride forward into the contact" are talking through their hats?

                                          Given a choice the horse will choose to stay off the bit because the pressure is aversive, but we don't give him that choice.

                                          You're certainly free to carry on riding according to your beliefs. But you won't make any progress.
                                          That's exactly what I was told when I first started riding this horse, yet we've made progress anyway. So now what I get is that the progress was too slow, or what I've done isn't really dressage because the horse isn't on the bit and working over his back. And no doubt if we get further I'll get more of the same because "he isn't really collected, really through, really forward, really on the bit, really..... I know how this game is played. :-)

                                          Comment

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