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Dutch vs., well, every other method

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  • #41
    one of the very first things you teach a youngsters is leg means go. over time you refine that to mean do what i asked you to do until i tell you to do something else.

    it is basic education. anky did not invent it!

    (that is what always gets me going in these discussions... people act like (insert which ever marketed name is being used) has invented a new way of doing this.... when in fact it has all been done before.

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    • #42
      Originally posted by mbm View Post
      one of the very first things you teach a youngsters is leg means go. over time you refine that to mean do what i asked you to do until i tell you to do something else.

      it is basic education. anky did not invent it!

      (that is what always gets me going in these discussions... people act like (insert which ever marketed name is being used) has invented a new way of doing this.... when in fact it has all been done before.
      mbm, good point... but I have seen a lot of video... mostly of German riders... where there is leg-leg-leg at every stride. I am not saying the BEST German riders, only that it seems common.
      You have to have experiences to gain experience.

      1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

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      • #43
        Originally posted by quietann View Post
        mbm, good point... but I have seen a lot of video... mostly of German riders... where there is leg-leg-leg at every stride. I am not saying the BEST German riders, only that it seems common.
        There are many roads to Rome. There is more than one "right way," so pick one and do your best.

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        • #44
          Not reading any of the responses - but in a nutshell - not all "Dutch" riding is done the way Anky teaches. I've ridden with several Dutch instructors and none of them teach things the way AVG does.

          (Just an FYI if it hasn't already been stated.)
          Now in Kentucky

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          • #45
            Originally posted by quietann View Post
            mbm, good point... but I have seen a lot of video... mostly of German riders... where there is leg-leg-leg at every stride. I am not saying the BEST German riders, only that it seems common.
            I've seen videos both where the leg is nagging the horse and where the leg "bounces" because it's loose and not nagging and a combination of horse/rider conformation and position causes it.

            My opinion is based upon having a horse who resents much leg and lacks confidence without a lot of seat control (which can mean *allowing* rather than driving, but still giving him confidence through seat) - but I want to see very little leg in use. I ride with a trainer and a couple clinicians who trained in Germany and are all of the idea that you use as little leg as possible, but it varies depending on the specific horse and that horse's personality. Some horses seem to "need" either a steady or constant rhythmic leg, some need almost none. My horse would be happier if my legs actually WERE cut off at the knee like the famous biomechanics image (I think started by Mary Wanless, though I'm not sure) - my mom's horse likes a "hug" from the legs at all times. So to me it comes down to listening to the horse and what the horse needs - and for a BNT who can pick and choose what horses she/he rides, sticking to one type may become possible.
            Originally posted by Silverbridge
            If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.

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            • #46
              Originally posted by J-Lu View Post
              You would have to note all of the horses beginning and exiting training to make this statement. Anky has a system that works for some horses, but not all horses. They all do. None of them worry about the horses that don't fit in their training program. They don't have to. Those horses fit into another training program more suited to the personality of the horse. It's why they are sold.
              I actually can speak to this a bit. My trainer's mentor is a very well-regarded trainer (retired from competition), and Anky and Sjef came to his barn to try a horse that was for sale. Horse was fancy and young, and already doing PSG/I-1. I think he was probably schooling all the Grand Prix at this point.

              Anky got on the horse, and proceeded to ride in about the most extreme form of LDR that she uses. She was pushing, pushing for more forward and more energy, and holding the horse pretty tight in front, and doing lots of fairly quick, large flexions.

              Mentor explains that the horse isn't used to being ridden in this manner. Anky said she understood, that she was trying to see if the horse could "handle the training" or not. After about 20 minutes, the horse was tense, nervous and a little fried in the head, and Anky hopped off and said "This one can not handle it."

              She knows that her training system - the one SHE uses on international-quality upper-level horses - is not for every horse, and that it's not easy on them.

              Comment


              • #47
                I didn't see where anyone said that Anky, Gal, et al. invented anything, but they exemplify a style of riding based on highly disciplined clear aids and a quiet, meaningful leg.

                They haven't cornered the market on it, so to speak, but it's worth pointing out, especially when you have so many people complaining about the overuse of spurs, spur marks, blood in the spur area, yadda yadda yadda. It's just one component of an overall training philosophy but also very important and often overlooked, and something I hope to one day master with a pinky-finger's worth of the talent of any one of those demo rider's from the Gal clinic videos.

                The trainer I ride with is classically trained and also very strict about not nagging with the leg -- it's one of the many things I appreciate about him. My previous trainer never got on me about this and so it's been a hard habit to break.

                Riding with different clinicians can be a challenge. There is one GP trainer from the German school who always coached me to keep my legs on during a downward transition. I was totally flummoxed in my first lesson with the Dutch system trainer, who kept yelling "legs OFF!" during the downward transition. (As it turns out, as long as my horse is clear on what's expected and I'm consistent in how I ask him, both methods work.)

                After seeing several competitors spurring the snot out of their mounts at the World Dressage Masters, watching Hans Peter was especially refreshing. ETA: Most of the riding was tactful but some riders did use a LOT of leg.

                And by the way, I didn't mind in the least when he warmed up Next One for a few minutes with chin to chest. Nothing was forced, the hands were soft, the horse was quiet, happy and relaxed and the riding was brilliant. I have no problem at all with this application of rollkur, and obviously neither does the horse. See for yourself:

                http://s73.photobucket.com/user/hfou...ml?sort=3&o=24

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by chisamba View Post
                  There is much you can learn from anyone, especially anyone who has won a lot of medals, but, again, let me be honest, that can all be achieved without the negative of force on the bars of the mouth and low, down and round, and lets not pretend it does not happen, we have all seen the pictures.
                  Let me preface with: I have never seen Anky ride. I have not looked at a lot of various pictures illustrating the nefarious rollkur. I have, however, asked a friend who has discussed it - and used it - with an UL trainer/judge. According to her (trainer/judge), it is merely a momentary stretching exercise. As such, it makes as much sense as stretching exercises we humans do. Caught on camera, there is no sense of time. On the other hand, caught on video (when you're positive sure that it hasn't been edited), if the position is being held for a long time (minutes...), then one might question its value. There are riders and 'trainers' all over the world in every discipline who hear or see a technique, assume they understand its purpose, and attempt to create 'the look' on their own. This rarely serves a positive purpose - other than attracting clients who know even less than they do.
                  www.ayliprod.com
                  Equine Photography in the Northeast

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                  • #49
                    I believe the concept of giving the horse a command, and then letting them alone, and then giving another command when you wish for a change is called "en parole (sp?)" and is a french term, very very classical training.

                    Swamp Yankee was having quite the discussion of french school riding, and this concept came up. However, it's not just the french school, because it was a big point on Klimke's teaching and riding, and also the SRS.

                    It makes perfect sense- having to give a constant aid to the horse, every stride, is wearying to the rider and annoying to the horse. Best to give a command, and have it followed, then give another. One leads to a delicate tactful rider and a light responsive horse, the other to a dull heavy rider and a dull unresponsive horse.

                    And to the thought that what Anky teaches is only for "special" super reactive horses, well, no. My 3 year old is dead sided- worst I've ever experienced- and since he was that way from the moment I swung a leg over him, he was born that way. With patience consistent training he now responds to very light aids nearly all the time- this response is "trained" not inborn. If executed correctly and consistently, the rider is the artist, the horse the canvas. She is no different from Klimke on this one, but her way of thinking and organizing her aids is simpler than the German method. If you already have a sound foundation and are a well educated rider, I think it's very easy to ride this way, but you have to be focused and attentive to achieve the timing required.

                    Of course, I was not at the recent clinic, so I have no idea what she was teaching now as opposed to a decade and more ago. There was plenty of shoulder-in at SG Bar, and none of it was incorrect.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      A lot of us old people remember when the CDS had kick ass symposiums every year. You could learn a lot by watching the same group I'd riders for two days and talking to these riders.

                      Anky and Tineke did one. She clearly explained her LDR method and showed how it worked on horse after horse at all levels. The quality of gait improvement was pretty fricken amazing. And no way does that 115 lb. woman haul around these giant horses used to being hung on by big riders. It's one way to do things.

                      Second, she is funny as hell. She has a great sense of humor, and she always takes everything with grace. I talked to her at the World Cup and asked her about reining, and she was so gracious and funny in saying she would love to do it, but she really needed a top horse, as is the case with any top sport. And when people were downright rude about asking her things, she took it graciously and allowed for everyone to have their opinion.

                      She explained not using the term half halt because she asked ten people what they were and got ten different answers, explaining the problem. Using that term confuses a lot of people. She user what many would call "half halts" but uses more precise terms, sit deeper, slow the motion, stop the motion, rebalance . . . And she insisted she is not that strong, so the horse has to carry himself, not needing the whip or constant kicking.

                      Which reminds me of another kick ass CDS symposium with Kyra Kyrklund, who is also super funny and unquestionably way better than all of us. The KK sound bite for the symposium: slight leg to go forward, horse doesn't, respond promptly? KICK the horse and make him JUMP off leg, ask again with slight leg. Repeat until horse moves promptly off of leg. Repeat, but opposite with rein and stopping.

                      Yeah. There is end there is nothing new. Just different ways of using it of saying it. Everyone understands things differently, so we will all get more or less from different forms of explaining it to us.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Eclectic Horseman View Post
                        Show us your gold medals, all knowing experts!
                        Mmm, yes. The gold medal argument. You mean like Lance Armstrong? Clearly the medals are evidence of a sound method and a good trainer / teacher...even more so in a subjective sport...
                        Fear is the rocket sauce.
                        Jack Black

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by ZiggyStardust View Post
                          Mmm, yes. The gold medal argument. You mean like Lance Armstrong? Clearly the medals are evidence of a sound method and a good trainer / teacher...even more so in a subjective sport...
                          OK, fine, but unless you're discussing drug testing modalities I don't see how this is a useful comparison. Armstrong really was that good and he was sound, albeit with doping and sociopathic personality... But then again, pretty much all of them were doping, so at least it was a level playing field.

                          But getting back to dressage, someone stated that Anky's training isn't easy on a horse. Well, duh! This level of competition is rigorous and hard on any horse, no matter what the training methods.

                          If a long and successful competitive career isn't evidence of soundness, then what is?

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Beentheredonethat View Post

                            Which reminds me of another kick ass CDS symposium with Kyra Kyrklund, who is also super funny and unquestionably way better than all of us. The KK sound bite for the symposium: slight leg to go forward, horse doesn't, respond promptly? KICK the horse and make him JUMP off leg, ask again with slight leg. Repeat until horse moves promptly off of leg. Repeat, but opposite with rein and stopping.
                            I got some of her videos from the library once. The one thing I remember besides the work on the square was her saying something along the lines of, "ze horse must learn to go for ze legs and stop for ze hand."

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by ccoronios View Post
                              Let me preface with: I have never seen Anky ride. I have not looked at a lot of various pictures illustrating the nefarious rollkur. I have, however, asked a friend who has discussed it - and used it - with an UL trainer/judge. According to her (trainer/judge), it is merely a momentary stretching exercise. As such, it makes as much sense as stretching exercises we humans do. Caught on camera, there is no sense of time. On the other hand, caught on video (when you're positive sure that it hasn't been edited), if the position is being held for a long time (minutes...), then one might question its value. There are riders and 'trainers' all over the world in every discipline who hear or see a technique, assume they understand its purpose, and attempt to create 'the look' on their own. This rarely serves a positive purpose - other than attracting clients who know even less than they do.
                              Supposedly this video is unedited
                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo8W2fUjdM4
                              I wasn't always a Smurf
                              Penmerryl Sophie RIDSH
                              "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
                              The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Oh lordy, the blue tongue video. That's the COTH equivalent of Godwin's law. Note that this is NOT Anky.
                                "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Eclectic Horseman View Post
                                  Oh lordy, the blue tongue video. That's the COTH equivalent of Godwin's law. Note that this is NOT Anky.
                                  No, I thought Parelli=Godwin.

                                  Poster wanted an unedited video
                                  I wasn't always a Smurf
                                  Penmerryl Sophie RIDSH
                                  "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
                                  The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by carolprudm View Post
                                    No, I thought Parelli=Godwin.

                                    Poster wanted an unedited video
                                    Well, before PP it was rollkur and the kittel video. Patrik Kittel, the rider in this video, is not even DUTCH, you understand. I guess we can all agree that anything--spurs, curb rein, etc. Can be overused and abused. And as the poster said, in those circumstances you might "question the value."
                                    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

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