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Dutch vs., well, every other method

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  • #21
    I just watched a video from her and was surprised by some of her methods as well like asking for the trot (for example) once, instead of constantly having your leg on. She also said how LDR was only for professional riders to use. She is an excellent rider and her horses are lovely.
    I LOVE my Chickens!

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    • #22
      Originally posted by LarkspurCO View Post
      Then let's be honest and acknowledge that many horses trained in the Dutch system stay sound and compete into their late teens, and let's not pretend that horses like Next One aren't still winning the Grand Prix at age 18 and that Bonfire didn't complete in three Olympic Games. We have all seen the videos.
      Sure they have and sure they do. Is that the only criteria to be observed for riding? So it does not matter how you train so long as your horse wins and lives a long time. Noted.

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      • #23
        The point is that the horse's soundness and longevity are a reflection of the quality of their training. If the training were detrimental, a long and successful career would not be possible.

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by LarkspurCO View Post
          The point is that the horse's soundness and longevity are a reflection of the quality of their training. If the training were detrimental, a long and successful career would not be possible.
          You would have to note all of the horses beginning and exiting training to make this statement. Anky has a system that works for some horses, but not all horses. They all do. None of them worry about the horses that don't fit in their training program. They don't have to. Those horses fit into another training program more suited to the personality of the horse. It's why they are sold.
          Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

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          • #25
            Originally posted by J-Lu View Post
            You would have to note all of the horses beginning and exiting training to make this statement. Anky has a system that works for some horses, but not all horses. They all do. None of them worry about the horses that don't fit in their training program. They don't have to. Those horses fit into another training program more suited to the personality of the horse. It's why they are sold.
            I don't know Anky personally, but maybe you do and you have some inside knowledge about the motivations for buying and selling of horses in her barn.

            From I understand, trainers of her caliber will look for horses they believe will succeed in the world-class show ring and bring business to the breeders and make their sponsors happy. When they sell a horse it's not for lack of skill or training adaptability -- they are running a business and don't have time to waste on lesser talented horses. Or perhaps a sale is made outside of the trainer's hands (em, Totilas?).

            Even if their skills were so limited that they were forced to sell talented horses that didn't "fit in" to their narrow-minded training program, this would not refute the fact that the horses they do keep and train have long and successful careers.

            All of which is merely to take issue with the earlier comment about the "negative" effects if the training methodology. I highly doubt that Anky or Edward look at a horse and say to themselves, "Nope, he won't do the rollkur so I can't ride him."

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            • #26
              I audited and wrote an article about an Anky clinic for my GMO in 2004. I found her to be down to earth and clearly very emotionally attached to her horses. Many at the clinic were surprised that she was not the evil demon that the green eyed monsters have made her out to be.

              I'll never forget her saying that she uses her voice a lot in training. She believes that it should be allowed because it is, after all, the most gentle of the aids. I have the article that I wrote around somewhere, but I remember that she was very careful about not using the hand and the leg at the same time and making things as clear and simple as possible for the horse. When a horse was going well, she advised the rider to sit still and do nothing and enjoy. She frequently advised riders to stop using aids and just pay attention to the horse and then only use a correction where needed.

              Obviously, Anky's methods require and extremely focused, thinking, feeling rider. I went into the clinic with an open mind and came away from it as a fan.
              "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

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              • #27
                Originally posted by Eclectic Horseman View Post
                When a horse was going well, she advised the rider to sit still and do nothing and enjoy. She frequently advised riders to stop using aids and just pay attention to the horse and then only use a correction where needed.
                I ride with a German trainer and find that the way she phrases things requires non-literal translation for my body.

                I'd like to contribute my understanding that still-with-the-horse is different than still-do-nothing. The correction I hear most in my own riding is "stay with the horse," which requires activity but not necessarily intervention (correction).

                I also hear "good half-halt" when I am unaware that I actually *did* anything.

                The greatest challenge I have as a rider is that I have to do it in my body. By the time I think of it, the opportunity is lost. I doubt I am the only one.
                *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=

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                • #28
                  Larkspur,

                  There have been articles published with quotes made mostly by Sjef that have stated if a horse they own does not fit into their rollout method of being ridden, it's sold.

                  What this implies is that it is probably upsetting to the horse or it is very physically demanding (one would assume that also means upsetting). I'm not sure about soundness being a part of what the training does to those horses. He has said they are sold. I never saw that they're sold to France.
                  "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I took video from when Anky and Tinneke Bartels came to DG Bar in 2000. This was when Bonfire was still on top. She brought Idool, the same horse which was featured in her infamous rollkur video from Sydney (shudder). Probably not that many of you are old enough in this sport to even remember those days, but it was frackin godawful, hideous, and certainly not anything like how I ride, or care to. I detest AVG, rollkur, and everything about it, never in my life have come even close to riding using that method, and have produced FEI horse after FEI horse.

                    Anyhow, I never really looked at them again until quite recently, as I was entirely prejudiced against anything about her.

                    The videos ought to be a manual for how to ride and train to grand prix. You want to know how to produce a stellar grand prix horse? This is how. She never went anywhere near rollkur (except in the warmup with Idool), and her demo ride on Idool is simply breathtaking. I can't explain away the paradox, but there it is.

                    Her method works- every horse, every rider with some good affinity and talent. It's little different from how the SRS train by the way, as that's where I get my instruction.

                    I study those videos at least once a week, and my horses have never gone better. Never. I've never ridden better either. My small tour horse who I was about to retire has found the fountain of youth with this method, and I'm seriously thinking of showing him again, because I think he will be a serious contender.

                    I teach my WS using these methods and their riding is better every single day- and my schoolhorse looks like he did back in his prime with them.

                    Drop the rollkur and take the rest. She didn't win all that gold because she's a complete fool. At DG Bar there were plenty of really good horses, but Idool makes them look like wild mustangs in comparison. Or the difference between a $75,000 and a $500,000 horse.

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                    • #30
                      I think that good riders all ask/require certain things from horses:

                      that they respond as asked in a prompt forward manner
                      that they continue doing as asked until told to do something different
                      etc

                      they require certain things from riders/themselves:
                      that they continue to refine the aids over time
                      that they stop aiding once the horse responds as requested
                      etc


                      and yes, there are folks that ride classically. remember that in a sport where the system is public domain to make money you need to create you own signature system - so part of what you see when you see some of the BNTs having unique ways of explaining things is that they are creating a marketable product.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by HSS View Post
                        I took video from when Anky and Tinneke Bartels came to DG Bar in 2000. This was when Bonfire was still on top. She brought Idool, the same horse which was featured in her infamous rollkur video from Sydney (shudder). Probably not that many of you are old enough in this sport to even remember those days, but it was frackin godawful, hideous, and certainly not anything like how I ride, or care to. I detest AVG, rollkur, and everything about it, never in my life have come even close to riding using that method, and have produced FEI horse after FEI horse.

                        Anyhow, I never really looked at them again until quite recently, as I was entirely prejudiced against anything about her.

                        The videos ought to be a manual for how to ride and train to grand prix. You want to know how to produce a stellar grand prix horse? This is how. She never went anywhere near rollkur (except in the warmup with Idool), and her demo ride on Idool is simply breathtaking. I can't explain away the paradox, but there it is.

                        Her method works- every horse, every rider with some good affinity and talent. It's little different from how the SRS train by the way, as that's where I get my instruction.

                        I study those videos at least once a week, and my horses have never gone better. Never. I've never ridden better either. My small tour horse who I was about to retire has found the fountain of youth with this method, and I'm seriously thinking of showing him again, because I think he will be a serious contender.

                        I teach my WS using these methods and their riding is better every single day- and my schoolhorse looks like he did back in his prime with them.

                        Drop the rollkur and take the rest. She didn't win all that gold because she's a complete fool. At DG Bar there were plenty of really good horses, but Idool makes them look like wild mustangs in comparison. Or the difference between a $75,000 and a $500,000 horse.
                        which is exactly what i said, use the technique that works, without the rollkur, which i do not see as being necessary to the technique. Sjef learned to ride at 28 and had made the dumb new owner mistake of buying a very difficult yearling as a novice rider, rollkur was the result. the rest of it , keep it simple, ask , get a result, do nothing till you have to ask again, all of this is simple clear aids, clarity an simplicity, i love. No need for the ugly.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Well again, back to the clinic that I wrote the article about. Anky did discuss LDR and said that it is simply one tool to be used as needed, when needed. She explained that doing poll high competition frame work all the time makes a horse muscle sore and stiff, as does doing too much LDR. Anky uses the variable frame to keep the horse supple and flexible and also uses it to get rid of a horse's blockages that keep the action of the reins or legs from going through, and she also uses it when a horse is tense and spooky in order to get better control and to relax him. She also noted that horses are gradually TRAINED to adopt that deep low round frame when she lowers her hands, and that they are not forced into it, as that would defeat the purpose.

                          Seen in that light, the unattractive extreme posture that we observe is a CORRECTION and like most corrections, it is not lovely to watch although it does a produce the correct result.
                          "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

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                          • #33
                            Originally posted by J-Lu View Post

                            Anky has a system that works for some horses, but not all horses.
                            You mean super talented horses?

                            Top riders can afford to be picky about the animals they take on. They are going to get paid either way, so of course they get rid of the ones that can't hack it. It really doesn't matter too much how crazy or difficult a horse is, if has the potential to be a star then they aren't going to part with it.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              I audited the same clinic as the OP and I sort of felt like it was a waste of my time. I didn't really come away with much that I could use at home, compared to Stephen Clarke and Steffen Peters clinics, where I learned so much. I only audited one day (Saturday) and I don't think I saw much improvement in the horses and riders throughout the rides. (that said, I didn't see how they looked on Friday, so maybe they improved a lot from the previous day?) I thought her aids for the shoulder in were very weird. Both hands to the inside (that part is fine), inside leg back and no outside leg. From the corner where I was sitting, the shoulder in looked more like a leg yield (on 4 tracks with the outside hind falling out). Not a correct shoulder in IMHO and I think if I rode them like that in a test I would not score very well. I was always taught that the inside leg is at the girth to ask for bend and the outside leg slightly back to guard the haunches from falling out.
                              www.saraalberni.com

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                              • #35
                                i find it ridiculous to stay that a horse going poll high would get stiff and sore.

                                All anyone has to do is watch the great riders that ride classically and make up their own minds as to the validity of that quote.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by Eclectic Horseman View Post
                                  Well again, back to the clinic that I wrote the article about. Anky did discuss LDR and said that it is simply one tool to be used as needed, when needed. She explained that doing poll high competition frame work all the time makes a horse muscle sore and stiff, as does doing too much LDR. Anky uses the variable frame to keep the horse supple and flexible and also uses it to get rid of a horse's blockages that keep the action of the reins or legs from going through, and she also uses it when a horse is tense and spooky in order to get better control and to relax him. She also noted that horses are gradually TRAINED to adopt that deep low round frame when she lowers her hands, and that they are not forced into it, as that would defeat the purpose.

                                  Seen in that light, the unattractive extreme posture that we observe is a CORRECTION and like most corrections, it is not lovely to watch although it does a produce the correct result.
                                  well there is a strong argument about whether the result is correct. It produces the result they desire, but it is clear from a decade or so of experience with observing the system now, that it detrimentally affects gaits, and extensions. This argument can be made forever, and never agreed upon, but a horse that is shortened in the neck cannot correctly influence its length of stride, only its amplitude

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                                  • #37
                                    Show us your gold medals, all knowing experts!
                                    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by mbm View Post
                                      i find it ridiculous to stay that a horse going poll high would get stiff and sore.

                                      All anyone has to do is watch the great riders that ride classically and make up their own minds as to the validity of that quote.
                                      It's all about prioritization. If one's main goal is to always be poll high at the expense of the rest of the horse, then yeah I can totally believe that a horse will get sore. Generally, the less educated one is in the sport the more likely it is that the majority of one's focus is concentrated on one aspect (neck position, for instance) at the neglect of the hind end. This goes for both extremes of the discussion (poll high vs. apparently, the Antichrist).

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Not a dressage rider, but was very interested in reading the discussion about what, in the US, was called "stabilization" in the old days. It was a tenet of the cavalry and cavalry trained trainers and and teachers that the very first step in a horse's advanced training was just what y'all say Anky does. That is, that you give the aids for a gait, the horse takes the gait, and then stays there until you positively give the aids for another movement. This was said to be the basic building block for all advanced work.

                                        Is "stabilization" no longer considered the first step in training?
                                        "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                        Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by Eclectic Horseman View Post
                                          Show us your gold medals, all knowing experts!
                                          right there is the problem, as if competing and winning is the only ethic of value.

                                          My riding heroes do not even compete, and yet are fabulous dressage trainers,
                                          Kottas, Mikolka, Hausberger, and of course the first, Podhajski ( who did actually compete)

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