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A Wonderful Video Moment at the Charles de Kunffy Clinic at Hassler Dressage

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  • #81
    Originally posted by narcisco View Post
    In my experience, if all we look for is the bad and the mistakes then that is all we learn to see. If riders intend to use videos to improve their eye, then they need to look for the positives as well. And ultimately, if the negatives are all we see, then we subconsciously learn to emulate the mistakes. It is one of the downsides of teaching too many beginners--it does not bode well for our own riding, unless we have upper level riders to watch as well. Seeing what is right is perhaps far more important than seeing what is wrong.
    Ah, yes, absolutely. But we only really know them by comparison. One of the most useful exercises Erica Poseley uses is to have riders practice wrong positions, go to the correct place, go back to another wrong one, so we learned to feel the differences between them-- not to mention the different effects they would have on the horse! Before Erica, I couldn't even feel the horrid things I was doing, let alone fix them!

    What you say, though, reminds me of another excellent piece of advice that I've followed with some success-- i.e., to seek out and watch riders at shows, etc. who are much better than you are, not the ones that are worse, because your own body will absorb and imitate what you are seeing. (I think that came from Jane Savoie, but not sure). Shortly after reading that, I picked out the best rider I could find at my next show and literally did my best to ride alongside, imitating her in the schooling area, trying to become as much like her as possible. I rode a very nice test afterward-- and was glad to have the opportunity to tell her how she'd helped me.

    Although I don't want to beat a dead horse, I think that's why some of us asked why the OP presented a specific moment as "wonderful." We wanted to know which positives he thought we should be looking at.
    http://www.tunnelsendfarm.com

    Comment


    • #82
      Context is everything and the viewers project onto the clip whatever is the viewer's context/pov.

      As a student, I appreciate that the instructor uses praise instead of shame/criticism to teach. There was something in that moment that the instructor was trying to teach the rider and/or audience. We as viewers do not know what that lesson was. This thread reminds me of the long one of the Buck movie, where all the posters projected onto the documentary their own stories - arguing about an edited piece of film that told a particular story of the director (not Buck, as he didn't create it). People can argue all day about something that is by nature "out of context." No one knows the backstory except Plimsoll and the audience. And even then, its all up to the interpretation of the viewers!

      Comment


      • #83
        Originally posted by Justa Bob View Post
        Context is everything and the viewers project onto the clip whatever is the viewer's context/pov.

        As a student, I appreciate that the instructor uses praise instead of shame/criticism to teach. There was something in that moment that the instructor was trying to teach the rider and/or audience. We as viewers do not know what that lesson was. This thread reminds me of the long one of the Buck movie, where all the posters projected onto the documentary their own stories - arguing about an edited piece of film that told a particular story of the director (not Buck, as he didn't create it). People can argue all day about something that is by nature "out of context." No one knows the backstory except Plimsoll and the audience. And even then, its all up to the interpretation of the viewers!
        Agreed!!! This is why I asked my very sincere/honest question, but never got an answer, which leaves me reminicent of "The Emperor's New Clothes", lol!!! Personally, I would be upset with the person who took the video and then chose to air it for everyone to see, but maybe the rider doesn't mind....??? For the rider: classy response, and I think that folks here actually think that you're a lovely rider with great potential and a super horse and that's why they are trying to help. Other than one or two rude comments, I just don't read snarkiness into most of these posts, I think they want the best for you and your wonderful (yes, I said it ;-) horse.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #84
          This excerpt is a post is by Mike Schaffer on the UDBB. This is why CdK is saying "Super, super!" and "Oh my god". And why I say "wonderful". Well done Ms. Plimsoll!

          That being said, the horse in this video clip was absolutely NOT being pushed down onto his shoulders. How can a horse falling on his face have the amplitude and scope of the strides this horse was showing in his front legs? As I keep suggesting to my friend Gallup, you have to look at the whole horse when evaluating things. Looking at the position of the poll or whether the front of the face is a little ifv or btv should be the last thing to observe, not the first. This horses shoulders come up with every stride. His back comes visibly up under the saddle as he kicks into gear. His quarters couldn't be any more engaged - his hind feet are overtracking by umpteen inches and landing under the stirrups. What more can you ask for? The only thing wrong with this video is it's not me sitting there doing so well!

          For those who don't know about Mr. Schaffer, here's a link.

          http://www.mikeschaffer.com/page7.html
          "No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier

          Comment


          • #85
            Originally posted by Mike Matson View Post
            This excerpt is a post is by Mike Schaffer on the UDBB. This is why CdK is saying "Super, super!" and "Oh my god". And why I say "wonderful". Well done Ms. Plimsoll!

            That being said, the horse in this video clip was absolutely NOT being pushed down onto his shoulders. How can a horse falling on his face have the amplitude and scope of the strides this horse was showing in his front legs? As I keep suggesting to my friend Gallup, you have to look at the whole horse when evaluating things. Looking at the position of the poll or whether the front of the face is a little ifv or btv should be the last thing to observe, not the first. This horses shoulders come up with every stride. His back comes visibly up under the saddle as he kicks into gear. His quarters couldn't be any more engaged - his hind feet are overtracking by umpteen inches and landing under the stirrups. What more can you ask for? The only thing wrong with this video is it's not me sitting there doing so well!

            For those who don't know about Mr. Schaffer, here's a link.

            http://www.mikeschaffer.com/page7.html
            Well and good, but I still don't see where you had the rider's permission to post that video all over the Internet. I could be missing something, but her graciousness aside, you seem to be trying to justify having done that.

            She did say she was willing to be seen, warts and all, but she did not herself post that video on COTH. You also seem to be arguing with her own experiences.
            A helmet saved my life.

            2017 goal: learn to ride like TheHorseProblem, er, a barn rat!

            Comment


            • #86
              Following others' illustrious example, I'm going to post exactly the same thing on multiple boards:

              In this Internet age, it can be hard to remember what is and is not acceptable to share. Often, it's easy to externalize one's morals-- "It was public!" "It's the Internet-- everyone knows the rules and risks!" However, there are real implications for people behind the screens.

              Just to put all my cards on the table, it's also pet peeve of mine when one's discussion tactic of choice is validation by quotation.

              And as always, moments from a clinic should be pushing the boundaries. They should be slightly less comfortable than one's day-to-day work-- otherwise you're just paying for a fairly expensive cheering squad. I expect this pair will continue to polish their extensions to address some of the criticisms upthread, and hopefully will continue to maintain and improve that level of cadence they discovered in their clinic.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #87
                Someone posts a video on Facebook and lists it as "public". No information is provided about the rider or horse. Others repost it elsewhere, including here. OP states it is "wonderful". Cdk say in video "Super,super!" and "Oh my god!".

                "Usual suspects" on CotH forum jump on keyboards, protesting, demanding "explanations" from the poster. Poster beaten with verbal roller pins by angry alts.

                You can only find better entertainment at horse shows.
                Last edited by Mike Matson; May. 5, 2013, 03:02 PM.
                "No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier

                Comment


                • #88
                  Originally posted by Mike Matson View Post
                  Someone posts a video on Facebook and lists it as "public". No information is provided about the rider or horse. Others repost it elsewhere, including here. Usual suspects" on CotH forum jump on keyboards, protesting, demanding "explanations" from the poster. Poster beaten with verbal roller pins by angry alts.

                  You can only find better entertainment at horse shows.
                  What others? You posted it elsewhere.
                  A helmet saved my life.

                  2017 goal: learn to ride like TheHorseProblem, er, a barn rat!

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #89
                    You need to get around on the internet a bit more.
                    "No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Originally posted by Mike Matson View Post

                      You can only find better entertainment at horse shows.
                      I beg to differ ("of course, she does," thinks a contingent of COTHers as their eyes roll around in their heads). According to a friend who shows both horses and dogs, there's nothing like a dog show. For those of you who have seen "Best of Breed," it apparently isn't too far from the truth!

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        I just watched a couple videos of Mike Schaffer riding, agree that the OP video is, indeed, absolutely wonderful by comparison, and am glad both Mikes appreciated the moment enough to post it on line.

                        Context again explains a lot.
                        http://www.tunnelsendfarm.com

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Originally posted by cnm161 View Post
                          In this Internet age, it can be hard to remember what is and is not acceptable to share. Often, it's easy to externalize one's morals-- "It was public!" "It's the Internet-- everyone knows the rules and risks!" However, there are real implications for people behind the screens. on the table, it's also pet peeve of mine when one's discussion tactic of choice is validation by quotation.

                          And as always, moments from a clinic should be pushing the boundaries. They should be slightly less comfortable than one's day-to-day work-- otherwise you're just paying for a fairly expensive cheering squad. I expect this pair will continue to polish their extensions to address some of the criticisms upthread, and hopefully will continue to maintain and improve that level of cadence they discovered in their clinic.
                          Called it.

                          Originally posted by Mike Matson View Post
                          Someone posts a video on Facebook and lists it as "public". No information is provided about the rider or horse. Others repost it elsewhere, including here. OP states it is "wonderful". Cdk say in video "Super,super!" and "Oh my god!".

                          "Usual suspects" on CotH forum jump on keyboards, protesting, demanding "explanations" from the poster. Poster beaten with verbal roller pins by angry alts.

                          You can only find better entertainment at horse shows.
                          You're not the victim here. Quit trying to be.

                          The rider is clearly identified at the end of the video, btdubs. Good try, though.

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            suzy it's "Best in Show", just sayin'
                            It's a hoot.

                            And as far as the suggestion to get around more on the internet, that isn't likely to be very productive, imnho.
                            See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              Originally posted by Mike Matson View Post
                              This excerpt is a post is by Mike Schaffer on the UDBB. This is why CdK is saying "Super, super!" and "Oh my god". And why I say "wonderful". Well done Ms. Plimsoll!

                              That being said, the horse in this video clip was absolutely NOT being pushed down onto his shoulders. How can a horse falling on his face have the amplitude and scope of the strides this horse was showing in his front legs? As I keep suggesting to my friend Gallup, you have to look at the whole horse when evaluating things. Looking at the position of the poll or whether the front of the face is a little ifv or btv should be the last thing to observe, not the first. This horses shoulders come up with every stride. His back comes visibly up under the saddle as he kicks into gear. His quarters couldn't be any more engaged - his hind feet are overtracking by umpteen inches and landing under the stirrups. What more can you ask for? The only thing wrong with this video is it's not me sitting there doing so well!
                              The following is a comment on my own horse/riding based on the above, and no one should infer that I’m talking about the video posted here. I’m addressing Mike Schaffer’s comment about the elements required for a good medium trot. When I first started competing my current horse at third level, there was a lot to like about his medium trots; pretty much all the things Mike is describing. However, he was still too low in his shoulders on occasion in spite of the nicely lifted back, amplitude of gaits, overtrack, etc. Judges all said basically the same thing—“Lovely, expressive medium trot but needs to be more uphill.” I would score 5 or 6. Anyway, my point is that the horse CAN have wonderful amplitude and scope but still be too low in the shoulders. I seem to recall someone taking a picture of me that shows this and, if I can find it, I will post it because it is quite interesting.

                              Also, seeing gallup’s name mentioned brought back my experience of scribing for her about 20 years ago. First of all, she is the consummate eagle eye. I recall one thing in particular that really struck me, but I couldn’t ask about it at the time because it was such a hectic show. Before the horse in front of her had even performed the flying change, she commented that it was going to be late. Sure enough, it was. Later I discussed this with my trainer who made a very insightful observation. People who have been riding/training/judging for years know what preparation is needed for each movement. If that preparation is missing or not properly executed, the movement cannot possibly be performed ideally. And, because of their broad experience, these people can tell in advance how that lack of preparation will manifest itself as evidenced by gallup's spot-on critique before the movement even happened.

                              That's it. Off to find that picture so that you guys can enjoy a Suzy-roast with your glass of wine tonight.

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                This video was put up on my facebook account and on the riders facebook account as a personal memento of a moment in time. It was never meant to portray a particular training methodolgy, nor did it portray anything other than a surprising yet beautiful moment when the horse offered a bit more than was expected. It was never meant to be forwarded to forums for analysis paralysis. Mike Matson - you have crossed privacy lines before with my footage. I am taking this footage down. This thread should never have been started in the first place.

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Originally posted by fairwindschance View Post
                                  This video was put up on my facebook account and on the riders facebook account as a personal memento of a moment in time. It was never meant to portray a particular training methodolgy, nor did it portray anything other than a surprising yet beautiful moment when the horse offered a bit more than was expected. It was never meant to be forwarded to forums for analysis paralysis. Mike Matson - you have crossed privacy lines before with my footage. I am taking this footage down. This thread should never have been started in the first place.


                                  I finally looked at this and was thinking it was so out of context, there was no way I could ever comment on it. I mean, I didn't know what happened before this and what the expectations were of the horse, rider or both. Who could tell? Why would this be worth commenting on negatively or positively?

                                  Good for you calling Mike out. He seems to post videos of things simply to garner attention--the more views and posts the happier he is. He enjoys being a catalyst, to quote Paulaedwina on the now closed CH thread that (surprise, surprise) Mike also started:

                                  I use a funny analogy to explain enzymes to my bio students. Enzymes are catalysts -they can change the reaction but are not changed themselves. So I say, "you all know people like this. You're hanging out having a good time and this person comes by for a bit. By the time the person leaves you're all fighting and you don't even know why.That's a catalyst."

                                  Paula
                                  "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #97
                                    If you don't want videos or photos shared, do not mark them as "public" on Facebook, which is what fairwindschance did. If you mark them as something else (such as "friends") then they cannot be shared on other sites. "Public" means just that - it is available for sharing outside your circle of Facebook friends.

                                    And as for my posting, I never asked for critiques. I simply stated it was a "wonderful" moment captured on video.

                                    If you want privacy for a video/photo/posting, there are other Facebook options that are available and should be used.
                                    "No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #98
                                      As regards Velvet's post, I remember when we had "dislike" buttons and she was complaining about all the ones she was getting. Now why was that?
                                      "No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #99
                                        This video was posted to show what Charles de Kunffy considered a "Super! Super" and "Oh my god!" moment. That of course has lead to a discussion about what Charles was seeing vs. what others might be seeing.

                                        Well mostly. It also seems that some of my "friends" have followed me here. I can hear the banging on my suit of armor.
                                        "No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier

                                        Comment


                                        • sheesh

                                          OP, you are a piece of work

                                          so what now the rider, her friends and CdK were asking for this train wreck?
                                          That is just an irresponsible excuse for what you have done here.

                                          To the rider in the video, I'd like to apologize for my earlier posting. I misunderstood what was going on originally.
                                          See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

                                          Comment

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