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When should the kickbacks begin?

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  • #61
    OP - my first thought before reading through the reponses was "If horse was only on training board with a couple shows thrown in the mix, owner should be getting some level of compensation from the sponsorships". For as much as anyone tries to pretty it up - any sponsorship that the rider is receiving is financially benefitting her - and she has no cash outlay to get there."

    Your trainer is *not* the only one out there who could get your horse doing CDIs. I understand the issues involved with a long term relationship - I expect to be putting my horse on the market in the fall and plan to send him to a different barn (though someone I have worked with before) as while current trainer is excellent, selling is NOT her forte. I will give her some bonus when he sells - she is why we are this level in the first place - but I can't have him languish on the market for a year because she does not do anything but list them on dreamhorse.

    Correct me if I am wrong - but you never intended to take on the role of owner's box sponsor. In that case I would hike 'em up and lay out to trainer exactly how much money you are willing to spend on shows for the horse, and provide her with the option to extend that budget on her own dime. That way horse still gets to shows either way, but at an amount you are comfortable with, and trainer does have the option to *invest* in her own business further if she chooses.

    And I would take whatever wisdom Honeylips passed on to you seriously. She has provided multiple riders with nice horses over the years and has lots of knowledge in the dressage arena as far as those types of relationships.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by ken View Post
      Can she seek out sponsors that would lower your costs? Such as tack, supplements, etc. I have seen trainers that are very good at spending other people's money & I think this may be happening here - if so, time to apply a strong half halt

      Proceed with caution & open communication & be happy your horse is doing so well! Remind your boyfriend that you would be paying as much in fees if your horse was doing mediocre in his training.
      My read of the situation is that trainer has those types of sponsors and OP has not seen a decrease in any of her expenses in management, training or showing bills.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by halteralter View Post

        The trainer can't afford this horse and she knows it...even if he was for sale.
        Originally posted by rothmpp View Post
        Your trainer is *not* the only one out there who could get your horse doing CDIs.
        My impression from the original post is that neither owner nor trainer thought that the horse/rider combo had the potential to come as far as they have?

        It is a crappy reality of the horse world that successful trainers are often the victim of their own good results. You do a good job with the horse, and then the owner comes back to you with a "well, you've done a good job, but I can see now that you are obviously not good enough for the horse...."

        What I think the OP is skipping over, is that she is likely getting very nice training for much less than if she paid an established FEI rider to train the horse.

        The owner has, essentially, gotten a lot more out of the deal with the trainer than she thought she was going to get. I don't think this is a reason to turn around and tell the trainer that they are thusly unworthy of the ride because they did a better job than expected.

        What if the trainer had not advanced the horse so far? Would the trainer then be blamed for failing to advance the horse? Seems to me the trainer is in a lose/lose situation. If she advances the horse, she is accused of being unworthy of the horse, and a possible cheat, who should be grateful enough to get the ride. If she fails to advance the horse, it would only be further proof of her suck-i-tude.
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        • #64
          OP, I get where you are coming from. I'm in a somewhat similar situation, however, my trainer already has made a name for themselves. Since my goal is to ultimately ride my horse, I'm OK with paying the training fees etc. I also pay the show fees because my guy needs show miles with a confident rider and that is not me right now. The difference in price between the FEI classes and my classes isn't enough for me to squabble about and my trainer goes above and beyond already so I don't feel short changed.

          Regarding the advice for your boyfriend to mind his own business; my husband does not fund any of my horse activities and frankly has absolutely no interest. Seriously, the man has walked by one of my horses in the cross ties, admired him and then told me about the great horse he saw. He had no idea who he was looking at!

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          • #65
            HJU just published an article on this very issue, called "At the Other End of the Spectrum". It's a good read and might help, OP
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            • #66
              Originally posted by rothmpp View Post
              I will give her some bonus when he sells - she is why we are this level in the first place -
              This I also don't get.

              Trainer was presumbably paid what she charges to ride the horse.
              So that she would ride it and thereby improve it.
              I assume lessons are also not free.

              She has already been paid in full for getting you to the level you are at.
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              • #67
                I think you've already gotten plenty of good advice, but I will chime in to support the idea that if campaigning the horse isn't your goal, the trainer needs to come up with a way to fund the show expenses that don't involve your pockets.
                As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

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                • #68
                  IM(uneducated)O, you need to ask yourself/your trainer this: How badly does the trainer want/need to show at the level your horse/money is allowing her to achieve? If you decide to stop showing the horse tomorrow, how big of a loss would it be for your trainer? If you just have the horse in training, bring it to another trainer or sell, would the trainer want to ride the upper levels (which you say she would not be doing without your horse) badly enough to pay for shows herself?

                  If the answer is no, the trainer is fine losing the opportunity to ride the horse at high levels, you need to decide if you're willing to keep paying. Nothing wrong if you decide you want to stop or just cut back on the amount/level of showing to reduce costs. If the answer is yes, then trainer needs to start paying, either paying partially or fully for shows, or drastically reducing your training fees.
                  .

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                    What the hell?

                    Noone is forcing the owner to send the horse to CDIs. I also have a **very** nice hunter that I almost never horseshow because it is too expensive. Lo, his horseshow resume is far below his actual abilities. He would be worth $75k if I had lessoned enough and horseshowed enough in the hunters but currently he is pulling in $35k offers from dressageland, unshown. (Also not for sale.)

                    If I want someone, be they experienced-and-mui-caro, or less-experienced-and-less-expensive, to train him and take him around the horseshows for me because suddenly having him "live up to his potential" is important to me, then I have to whip out the checkbook and pay them.

                    It never occurred to me that there should be trainers out there who should be paying ME to use (and financially develop) my asset.
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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
                      My impression from the original post is that neither owner nor trainer thought that the horse/rider combo had the potential to come as far as they have?

                      It is a crappy reality of the horse world that successful trainers are often the victim of their own good results. You do a good job with the horse, and then the owner comes back to you with a "well, you've done a good job, but I can see now that you are obviously not good enough for the horse...."

                      What I think the OP is skipping over, is that she is likely getting very nice training for much less than if she paid an established FEI rider to train the horse.

                      The owner has, essentially, gotten a lot more out of the deal with the trainer than she thought she was going to get. I don't think this is a reason to turn around and tell the trainer that they are thusly unworthy of the ride because they did a better job than expected.

                      What if the trainer had not advanced the horse so far? Would the trainer then be blamed for failing to advance the horse? Seems to me the trainer is in a lose/lose situation. If she advances the horse, she is accused of being unworthy of the horse, and a possible cheat, who should be grateful enough to get the ride. If she fails to advance the horse, it would only be further proof of her suck-i-tude.
                      I agree. The trainer is stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea. This kind of situation is very common. I'm curious as to the trainer's perspective on this situation.
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                      • Original Poster

                        #71
                        Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
                        My impression from the original post is that neither owner nor trainer thought that the horse/rider combo had the potential to come as far as they have?

                        It is a crappy reality of the horse world that successful trainers are often the victim of their own good results. You do a good job with the horse, and then the owner comes back to you with a "well, you've done a good job, but I can see now that you are obviously not good enough for the horse...."

                        What I think the OP is skipping over, is that she is likely getting very nice training for much less than if she paid an established FEI rider to train the horse.

                        The owner has, essentially, gotten a lot more out of the deal with the trainer than she thought she was going to get. I don't think this is a reason to turn around and tell the trainer that they are thusly unworthy of the ride because they did a better job than expected.

                        What if the trainer had not advanced the horse so far? Would the trainer then be blamed for failing to advance the horse? Seems to me the trainer is in a lose/lose situation. If she advances the horse, she is accused of being unworthy of the horse, and a possible cheat, who should be grateful enough to get the ride. If she fails to advance the horse, it would only be further proof of her suck-i-tude.
                        I'm not sure I agree with this line of thinking. Trainers should understand that they are paid to do a job, and do that job well. There should be no expectation on the trainer's part of anything above and beyond being paid for that job. Nobody here is saying that this trainer is "unworthy" of the horse....certainly not me. Nor did I say she was "not good enough" for the horse. To be clear, she would not be riding the horse if I didn't like the pair together and think she was doing a good job. It is reasonable to expect a horse in full training to "advance", so if that wasn't happening, she would not have the ride now.

                        Your post is loaded with a lot of false assumptions, none of which are correct in this specific case. I am not getting a great deal on training. While this is not a big name rider, she is locally well-known and well thought of. I don't understand your statement that the trainer is in a "lose-lose" situation. She is getting well paid to do her job, and getting all expenses paid for showing/misc/etc. To me, this seems like she is in a "win-win" situation. I don't begrudge her this, but your post needed a response with a dose of reality!

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Trainers and people who pay the trainers will obviously have different points of view about this.
                          Donald Trump - proven liar, cheat, traitor and sexual predator! Hillary Clinton won in 2016, but we have all lost.

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                          • #73
                            The above statements (Isabeau's) are just silly. The truth of the matter is that regardless of a trainer's ability (or perhaps in some cases because of a trainer's lack thereof) most horses are not successful at upper levels. Trainers are not often blamed by the industry for failing to advance horses. More often the causes are " the horse didn't have what it takes", the owner wasn't truly committed, a conformational flaw, saddle fit .... Blah blah blah. Most people simply don't expect every horse to perform competively at FEI levels.

                            Additionally trainers need to have the experience of bringing a few horses to the top to be able to reproduce that kind of success reliably. Any owner of a talented horse who is working with a trainer like the one described here is being supportive by nature of the very fact that they are giving a relatively inexperienced trainer the ride and paying them on top of it. If it works out great. If it doesn't the horse is usually " reschooled" with varying degrees of success at the owner's expense and the trainer, having cashed their check, simply moves on.
                            Last edited by nhwr; Apr. 23, 2013, 09:27 AM.
                            See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

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                            • Original Poster

                              #74
                              Blume Farm, yes I think some sort of arrangement/agreement on show fees and other costs might be the way to go. I've received a few PMs from people with their specific arrangements, and it has been very helpful in guiding me towards what I might like to propose. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with a lease agreement, but I'm open to investigating it.

                              nwhr, yes, I too have had some "if onlys"... I had a feeling from your posts that you were writing from experience. I know you say you don't begrudge the trainer anything in your situation, but do you feel like there was a lack of appreciation maybe?

                              ken, yes she actually has some sponsors, and continues to seek out more, although not with the tenacity I would like to see.

                              Gloria, yes I definitely need to evaluate what "role" I want to "play". Perhaps there is a happy medium here. I guess that is what I'm investigating now..

                              rothmpp, yes, you are right....I did not enter into this wanting to be a sponsor. And yes, certainly a discussion with the trainer is in order (I just need to get up the nerve). Honeylips definitely provided some much appreciated guidance.

                              atlatl, I'm not talking about the difference between regular classes and FEI classes. I'm talking about CDIs, where there is a BIG difference in cost. As for the boyfriend, he is not quite that hands off...but close

                              DancingFoalFarms, thank you for the article link!

                              Crown, thanks for the input!

                              Big_Grey_hunter, of course I can't really answer for the trainer, but I do believe me pulling the horse out or deciding to stop showing the horse would be a BIG disappointment for her. She seems to have a lot of goals and dreams wrapped around this horse.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                OP, I think most people get where you're coming from (myself included) but if there werent always a few - or more - opposing opinions in most threads COTH would be way less fun to read

                                As others have stated, I think "kickbacks" is whats ruffling feathers, which I also understand, but I'm pretty sure what it boils down to is that you are unwilling and more importantly, unable to fund your trainer's showing ambitions especially since you had no idea what kind of hose you had under you.

                                Horsie doesn't NEED to show. And since you appear to have no goal of showing him at the CDI level yourself and never intended to play the role of syndicate, if you choose to sell him to someone who would, the you should not feel guilty whatsoever.

                                Good luck with whatever you decide and congrats on happening upon such a nice horse
                                Barn rat for life

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                                • #76
                                  Originally posted by halteralter View Post
                                  Blume Farm, yes I think some sort of arrangement/agreement on show fees and other costs might be the way to go. I've received a few PMs from people with their specific arrangements, and it has been very helpful in guiding me towards what I might like to propose.
                                  This is why I think you like the training your horse is getting but now want it at a reduced rate.

                                  If it was simply a financial concern, you would say, "Hey trainer, I understand obviously you love showing this horse, but my checkbook no longer accommodates that for a horse that is not for sale and which I will never ride at that level. It is perfectly fine with me if he just sits so it is not in my interests to have him shown. Thank you, we'll be staying home from now on."

                                  Why are you the one doing the proposing? You can meet your needs to cut down on expenses simply by pulling the horse out of shows. Done. Your problem is solved.

                                  As a completely separate issue, and only if you feel like it, you can be receptive to letting the trainer come up with something agreeable to you if she wants to continue to use him. From a diplomacy point of view she is MUCH more likely to be happy with something you let HER come up with and suggest to you than some idea about how she should lower her fees for you that you deliver to her after consulting with strangers on the internet. (But I'm just a nasty person. Don't get people at all.)

                                  However, that of course runs the risk that the trainer will say, "OK, well, then I guess he'll sit."

                                  And you do like sitting in the owner's box and watching him rock out after all.
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                                  • Original Poster

                                    #77
                                    Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                                    This is why I think you like the training your horse is getting but now want it at a reduced rate.

                                    If it was simply a financial concern, you would say, "Hey trainer, I understand obviously you love showing this horse, but my checkbook no longer accommodates that for a horse that is not for sale and which I will never ride at that level. It is perfectly fine with me if he just sits so it is not in my interests to have him shown. Thank you, we'll be staying home from now on. I am prepared, however, to let you use the horse if you propose some arrangements for how you will finance the extra shows you would like to do with him."

                                    Why are you the one doing the proposing? You can meet your needs to cut down on expenses simply by pulling the horse out of shows and, if you feel like it, letting the trainer come up with something agreeable to you if she wants to continue to use him. From a diplomacy point of view she is MUCH more likely to be happy with something you let HER come up with and suggest to you than some idea about how she should lower her fees for you that you deliver to her after consulting with strangers on the internet. (But I'm just a nasty person. Don't get people at all.)

                                    However, that of course runs the risk that the trainer will say, "OK, well, then I guess he'll sit."

                                    And you do like sitting in the owner's box and watching him rock out after all.
                                    meupat...you're amusing. You have a real chip on your shoulder and I'm not quite sure why. First off, I don't see any reason why I shouldn't propose an agreement, but I'd also be open to the trainer proposing one as well. I have no problem with that. Of course I can pull the horse out of shows, but I'd like to not hurt my relationship with the trainer, and perhaps try to work out an amicable agreement for the 2 of us whereby she can continue to climb the competitive ladder with this horse while benefitting herself in the process. But it is not going to happen all on my dime. And you keep harping on me supposedly "wanting training at a reduced rate". I already clarified my stance on that. That is not what I am after. However, if her training rates climb wildly, I do expect some concession given the circumstances...to be grandfathered in perhaps. Especially if I am still paying for all of the show fees etc. And yes, you do come off as nasty....you may not be IRL, but you certainly play the role well here.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by halteralter View Post
                                      meupat...you're amusing. You have a real chip on your shoulder and I'm not quite sure why. First off, I don't see any reason why I shouldn't propose an agreement, but I'd also be open to the trainer proposing one as well. I have no problem with that. Of course I can pull the horse out of shows, but I'd like to not hurt my relationship with the trainer, and perhaps try to work out an amicable agreement for the 2 of us whereby she can continue to climb the competitive ladder with this horse while benefitting herself in the process. But it is not going to happen all on my dime. And you keep harping on me supposedly "wanting training at a reduced rate". I already clarified my stance on that. That is not what I am after. However, if her training rates climb wildly, I do expect some concession given the circumstances...to be grandfathered in perhaps. Especially if I am still paying for all of the show fees etc. And yes, you do come off as nasty....you may not be IRL, but you certainly play the role well here.
                                      You have never once stated that it is perfectly fine with you if the horse doesn't show. I do not get the impression you would be ok with that at all, actually.

                                      This weakens your position.

                                      If you honestly do not care either way, then you are doing the trainer a favor by letting her use your horse. I have let people use my horse in clinics; I did not care either way if they horse went but was happy to let them use him.

                                      But you really do want the horse shown, and clearly very much enjoy the success he is having with the trainer. You want to make a proposal instead of leaving it up to her to pick up the ball or drop it because you DO want the horse shown. You claim you are just doing her a favor with financing her rise through the ranks, but you also are uncomfortable with leaving the door open to her shrugging and dropping the deal.

                                      If she says "He only goes to the shows you pay for, sorry," would you change your tune? If you honestly don't care, the answer is clearly no, you wouldn't. Horse would stay home and everyone would be happy.

                                      Hey, if the shows are just a favor you are doing to her business on your dime, you won't care either way. It can be up to her what she wants to do if you leave her the option to still use the horse.

                                      But if you actually kind of like the deal you have here, think about what it would feel like to you to lose it entirely. Then view who is doing who what service from those eyes.
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                                      • Original Poster

                                        #79
                                        Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                                        You have never once stated that it is perfectly fine with you if the horse doesn't show. I do not get the impression you would be ok with that at all, actually.

                                        This weakens your position.
                                        How so? There is a BIG difference between showing at the local recognized shows and the regionals, vs showing at the CDI level. Apples and oranges.

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by halteralter View Post
                                          How so? There is a BIG difference between showing at the local recognized shows and the regionals, vs showing at the CDI level. Apples and oranges.
                                          Great.
                                          If you don't care, leave it up to the trainer.

                                          If she never takes him to a CDI again, he never goes to a CDI. The world continues to turn.

                                          You have no intentions of selling the horse and won't ever ride in a CDI so you don't need to be spending this money for her to promote herself, right?

                                          That part of you that really doesn't want to lose the deal is what you are getting out of it, even though you are trying to convince yourself that you are the one doing her the favor.
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