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If you knew.....

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  • If you knew.....

    Let's just say you know of a situation where a "trainer" is given an upper level horse to work with, rides the horse a total of 3 times in a month and longes him the rest of the time. Would you tell the owner/make sure the owner found out? (You don't know the owner personally.) Or would you leave it alone and hope karma takes care of it because, after all, the horse isn't suffering?

    NJR
    Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does.

  • #2
    Do you know the details of the arrangement?

    How do you know the owner doesn't know?

    What is your take in this?
    ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

    Originally posted by LauraKY
    I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
    HORSING mobile training app

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    • #3
      I've been there before. And I couldn't say anything because of my relationship to the parties involved.

      In this case, the owner figured it out pretty darn quickly. And word spread, too.

      I'd probably only stick my nose in, if a) I REALLY knew, first-hand, what was going on day-to-day in the horse's "training", and b) if the owner was a good friend.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Let's say the details of the arrangement were full training with an aim of showing the horse up a level this year.

        I'm pretty sure the owner doesn't know they are paying full training and getting 3 rides and some longeing a month. I suppose it could happen that someone would be happy with that, but I'm doubtful.

        My "take" is that an absentee owner is being taken advantage of.

        I have realized that the situation is going to be self-limiting because at some point the owners are going to want the horse shown and will see that everything is not as it should be. Still, comments appreciated.

        NJR
        Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does.

        Comment


        • #5
          It could also be that said horse has holes in his training that need to be addressed on the longe. Longing is training
          www.destinationconsensusequus.com
          chaque pas est fait ensemble

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Petstorejunkie View Post
            It could also be that said horse has holes in his training that need to be addressed on the longe. Longing is training
            If it is an upper level horse, it really ought to be able to make enough sense of the aids to be trained under saddle.

            I get longing for, "This is contact, here's how to go forward into it, and let's teach you some bridging voice commands."

            But by the time the horse is trained to go steer and stop undersaddle, is there really something that two inert sidereins, a longewhip, and a 20m circle round and round and round can accomplish better than a human skillfully applying the aids? Really, the side reins are going to teach the horse better than tactful sentient hands?

            I mean, long lines I would get. You can do a whole GP test on the long lines.
            But when people longe trained horses around and around and around I completely don't get it, unless for some reason theirr hands aren't good enough to be better than side reins.
            The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
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            • #7
              Why do you care?

              I mean, unless you are friends with the owner and are privy to their arrangement then mind your own freaking business.

              Comment


              • #8
                I wouldn't. It would be different if the horse were in danger or if I knew the owner well, but otherwise, I just wouldn't feel like it was my story to tell. The truth will come out eventually, but I wouldn't feel like it was my place to get involved.

                JMO.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Nojacketrequired View Post
                  Let's say the details of the arrangement were full training with an aim of showing the horse up a level this year.

                  I'm pretty sure the owner doesn't know they are paying full training and getting 3 rides and some longeing a month. I suppose it could happen that someone would be happy with that, but I'm doubtful.

                  My "take" is that an absentee owner is being taken advantage of.

                  I have realized that the situation is going to be self-limiting because at some point the owners are going to want the horse shown and will see that everything is not as it should be. Still, comments appreciated.

                  NJR
                  But you don't know.

                  Horse just got there. Maybe he's not in shape? (Despite being an upper level horse)

                  Maybe you haven't seen all the rides? Maybe the trainer rode him twice a week or at least once a week and lunge him the rest of the time.

                  Maybe the horse is not as good as you think he is. Maybe he needs the lunging.

                  Maybe the owners don't have that much money and this trainer does exactly what s/he is paying for.

                  I assume you are talking about the month of March. And the show season starts like in a month or so... Do you also know why this horse wasn't in training before that? You cannot expect to go up a level in such a short amount of time.

                  What 'upper level' are we talking about here? My friend rides her GP schoolmaster 2-3 times a week and lunge him the rest of the time and he is fine with that.

                  Again, what would you benefit by telling the owner?
                  Why are you kinda stalking this trainer?

                  Have faith in people, I bet those owners aren't idiots and will find out soon enough if something isn't right.

                  Or you could always go up to them and say : Hey! How is your horse doing? He's been very good everyday on the lunge, can't wait to see him ridden!!!
                  ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

                  Originally posted by LauraKY
                  I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
                  HORSING mobile training app

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    He didn't just get there. This has been a number of months now.

                    I'm not kinda stalking this trainer. S/he's doing this in full view of everyone with eyes.

                    Regardless, I'll just keep my mouth shut and wait to see how it comes out. Always something interesting going on, right?

                    NJR
                    Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Then the trainer is visibly not ashamed of what s/he is doing, you can only assume that this is what s/he supposed to be doing. Not everyone can pay for 5-6 pro rides a week.

                      And, as I said, you could always kindly ask the owners if they are happy with the progress of their horse.

                      I also don't always agree with what goes on at my barn; lessons that are given by pros and 'training' sessions.... but if the owner/rider is happy, who am I to rip their dreamz appart? I'm not there to cause drama, I'm there to ride.
                      ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

                      Originally posted by LauraKY
                      I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
                      HORSING mobile training app

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Are you paying for the training? Because IMHO, unless you are, this is none of your business and you should keep your mouth shut. You have no idea what sort of arrangement has been worked out between the owner of the horse and the trainer. The better part of valor is discretion, always.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                          If it is an upper level horse, it really ought to be able to make enough sense of the aids to be trained under saddle.

                          I get longing for, "This is contact, here's how to go forward into it, and let's teach you some bridging voice commands."

                          But by the time the horse is trained to go steer and stop undersaddle, is there really something that two inert sidereins, a longewhip, and a 20m circle round and round and round can accomplish better than a human skillfully applying the aids? Really, the side reins are going to teach the horse better than tactful sentient hands?

                          I mean, long lines I would get. You can do a whole GP test on the long lines.
                          But when people longe trained horses around and around and around I completely don't get it, unless for some reason theirr hands aren't good enough to be better than side reins.
                          There is a LOT that can be accomplished on the longe. It is an art with depth as deep as dressage itself. Most riders and trainers have not explored it as deeply, and therefore feel similar to what you've posted.
                          Side reins play an important role in a horse's development because of their ability to make the training all about the horse, and remove the psychological effects of a rider. This gives the horse the opportunity to focus just on themselves and the very clear cause and effect of their actions.

                          And "upper level" really does not guarantee a solid training foundation. Just in the last year I've gotten in a 1st, a 2nd, and a 3rd level horse, all of which had to go back and learn what rhythm and forward really mean.
                          www.destinationconsensusequus.com
                          chaque pas est fait ensemble

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            If that were one of my horses in training I would appreciate a phone call. As an out-of-town owner you always find out the hard way - i. e. after months of paying thousands of dollars for training, the horse is making no progress and the trainer attributes it to lack of talent on the part of the horse, or whatever. I don't understand why some folks are willing to sweep such behavior under the rug, so to speak....
                            Siegi Belz
                            www.stalleuropa.com
                            2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                            Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by siegi b. View Post
                              I don't understand why some folks are willing to sweep such behavior under the rug, so to speak....
                              Because most people do not know the details and why make a stink about something you do not know anything about?
                              One should not assume they know they details.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I've seen this situation work both ways. Many eons ago, I worked for a trainer that rode the horses about once a week, and we longed the horses the rest of the time. She was such a "talented" rider that the horses would learn with those few rides and go out and win everything. Owners didn't question her methods, because they were getting what they wanted..a winning horse. I have also seen the reverse happen...horses is never ready to compete, because (fill in the blank and pay more money to the trainer..next time, next show...never happened). Owner found out and threatened wire fraud lawsuit and got horse home after losing thousands... So, it goes both ways. Has the horse progressed?

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  If I feel chivalrous and are really convinced that something is amiss, when opportunity present itself such as when we happen to sit side by side for lunch, I might chat with the owner to see what the arrangement is. However, remember that Petstorejunkie is absolutely right in that longing can be a valuable training tool so don't come in ready to accuse the trainer.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Petstorejunkie View Post
                                    There is a LOT that can be accomplished on the longe. It is an art with depth as deep as dressage itself.
                                    ^ This

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Without knowing the agreement between owner and trainer, or the training program the trainer has in mind for the horse, I'd MYOB. Who knows what arrangements they've made?
                                      Different Times Equestrian Ventures at Hidden Spring Ranch
                                      www.DifferentTimesEquestrianVentures.com

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                                      • #20
                                        and we wonder how people can get away with so much in the horse world

                                        OP, if i were the person paying for full training i would want your input. your challenge is to let the owner know what you have seen in a way that doesn't attack or assume anything.

                                        i do not know the best way of bringing it up - but i for sure would want the info if you had it.

                                        Comment

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