• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Interesting "evasion" -- has anyone ever seen this?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #21
    I ride an OTTB that has this exact issue. For him we've learned that is an indication that he is in pain, specifically his rear right hock (old racing injury). Chiro agrees (he's also tight through the poll and withers). We've found that the twisting neck/mouth thing is him telling us that even though he doesn't look lame at the moment, he's in discomfort. If we ignore it, the next day he's usually a little off. When he's comfortable, he doesn't do it at all, regardless of bit (snaffle). Interestingly, 2 other OTTB's at the barn do the same thing, much less often, though.
    "A good man will take care of his horses and dogs, not only while they are young, but also when they are old and past service." Plutarch

    Comment


    • #22
      Sorry Caol, I hadn't seen your second post when I typed mine re: the vet. It's a difficult situation but there's probably not all that much you can do. If you have a horse on the same yard, you might think about organising a yard visit from a physio - many offer discounts if there are multiple horses. In other words, if subtle suggestion hasn't helped, maybe a bit of peer pressure could?
      Proud COTH lurker since 2001.

      Comment


      • #23
        I'd add that in addition to seeing "rooting" behavior or neck twisting when the horse is uncomfortable with bit/contact/hands/tack, I've seen something very much like this as a result of neck arthritis (esp. the part about the posture being very exaggerated and worse in one direction, and persisting when the rider/bit is taken out of the equation).

        Poor horse is in pain! I hope the owners wise up and call the vet!
        Evolutionary science by day; keeping a certain red mare from winning a Darwin award the rest of the time!

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #24
          Thanks guys. Your replies are all very interesting and enlightening. Ugh, it is a frustrating situation to be standing uselessly on the sidelines. I try to ignore what people do with their horses, but when one is so obviously unhappy, it's not easy to turn a blind eye.

          When the horse first arrived at the yard, I was working my horse when the teenage owner had her first ride on him. After watching him go, I said something like, "I think he looks a little bit off behind (horse moves quite short). You know, it might be worth it to have the vet give him a wee look over." I was aware that they had no prepurchase exam on the horse and also had not test ridden him nor seen previous owner ride him at the time he was given to them (other than on a video). Owner answered, "We just have to get to know each other." When I saw this girl's mom, who doesn't ride but sometimes hangs around and helps out, I said more or less the same thing and said that the neck twisting thing seemed odd and I would be a bit worried if it were my horse. Got the same: "we're just getting to know him and he's taking the mick a bit."

          In fairness, Mom did get the vet out to look at his teeth and the vet said the teeth were in good shape. However, investigations ended there and no vet has looked at the rest of the horse.

          I think I've already put them off. If I'm schooling my horse when the teen arrives at the barn, she will wait until I leave the arena before she goes in. She waited nearly an hour once, so I said, "Were you seriously waiting for me to leave the arena?" She answered, "I'm still getting to know him and figuring him out, so I feel like I can't ride if other people are riding at the same time as me."

          I've clearly made her and her mother feel awkward (and I have tried to be as diplomatic as possible in everything I have said). I just wish they'd call the vet instead.
          Help me keep my horse in peppermints and enjoy a great read! My New York City crime novel, available on Amazon.

          Comment


          • #25
            Sometimes you just have to decide that you're in and just be blunt and straightforward. I know I am much more comfortable with straight shooters than with polite people. You could say something like,

            "Look, I don't know the first thing about your horse, and I might just be full of crap, so I apologize ahead of time, but the way your horse is moving says pain to me. I'm sorry for being so forward, but I just didn't know what else to do."



            Paula
            He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #26
              Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
              Sometimes you just have to decide that you're in and just be blunt and straightforward. I know I am much more comfortable with straight shooters than with polite people. You could say something like,

              "Look, I don't know the first thing about your horse, and I might just be full of crap, so I apologize ahead of time, but the way your horse is moving says pain to me. I'm sorry for being so forward, but I just didn't know what else to do."



              Paula

              That's so American and it would freak British people out. But then again, I am American. At barns in the US, your fellow boarders would tell you if they thought your horse was off and it seemed to be quite socially acceptable to do so. In the UK, my "outsider" feeling is that it seems to completely violate social norms to tell a fellow livery how you think their horse is going. Even if the horse is three-legged lame. I've been here for six years and British horsepeople mystify me.

              Just yesterday, I was trying out a new saddle on my horse and asked someone how she looked. The answer, "Oh.... er..... I wasn't watching."
              Help me keep my horse in peppermints and enjoy a great read! My New York City crime novel, available on Amazon.

              Comment


              • #27
                I understand what you're saying, and for the record I'm from the British West Indies I think sometimes you have to be willing to take the bullet if something strikes you as so off that it distresses you. It works especially well if you're not in the habit of being a know-it-all. People tend to listen when taciturn folk give an opinion.

                ETA: OMG it just occurred to me that the bluntness is neither American nor West Indian, it's Quaker! Maybe if you dress plain and wear a snood or a cap they'll listen

                Paula
                He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by Caol Ila View Post
                  That's so American and it would freak British people out.
                  Uh... no it wouldn't. I promise we won't all gather together and glare at your impropriety en masse while wrapping ourselves tighter in our Union Jacks. Yes, a few people may prefer to stick to their own experience and agenda... but something else is definitely up if you've come to believe that British horsepeople don't freely offer their opinions to others! Where in the UK are you?
                  Proud COTH lurker since 2001.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I'm helping a friend who has a horse who did this EXACT same thing. You could stare into his nostril at the trot.

                    It has nothing to do with pain, lameness, a tight flash, or a need to go bitless. Obviously those are things you would check out first, but in my experience it's an evasion and not a pain response.

                    It's an evasion to taking contact, either because the rider's contact is unsteady or because the horse tried it a few times and un nerved the rider. It becomes more dramatic as the rider is inconsistent with their aids and asking the horse to not do that.

                    It can be fixed by taking contact but not pulling back and swiftly booting the horse forward. The more forward you drive the horse the less he can do it and stay on his feet.

                    If you consistently ignore the head postion and boot the horse forward it will go away.

                    I think I have some video and pictures if anyone wants to see the evasion.
                    http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Sounds like it maybe back soreness, or hock issues, or some other pain related issue. Could be the bit if they changed to a different bit then he is use to. But when he lunges do they tack him up to lunge in side reins? I'd have a vet out but in you position there is not much you can do and eventually somebody will probably get hurt but that will be their own fault for not dealing with the horse telling them something is wrong. I agree usually if it's not money reason and someone gibes a horse away there's a reason.
                      Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #31
                        @Lost at C. I'm in Scotland. I suppose at the barns I've been at, there is much less community and much more of a culture of "mind your own business" than there was at my old barn in the US, which had a community spirit and energy that must be a rare thing no matter where in the world you are. That may have been a characteristic of that particular barn and I'm unfairly blaming British culture -- LOL.

                        @Paula, Americans are often accused of being blunt, straightforward, and having no sense of irony. I think some of that is, of course, particularly British irony.

                        @enjoy the ride, I would be curious to see what happened if someone rode this horse forward into a contact. I know their trainer is an advocate of the pulling the inside rein until horse flexes its poll method and the teen doesn't really know how to ride a horse into a soft connection. While I may have a view of this style of riding, I actually don't think it's the cause of this problem as the horse did it from the moment the girl started riding him, before she started in lessons, and as I said, the horse does it on the lunge as well. I admit, I once said to mom, "Hey, if you want to see someone else ride him, just get a sense of what he's like with different people or people who've had a bit of dressage training, I'd be happy to sit on him." Got a blank look in response to that.

                        @rabicon, no side reins. Just the lunge line attached to the bit ring. Horse at first refused to go in its weaker direction. The barn owner, who can ask more meaningfully than teenage owner, eventually got him to do it but said the horse wasn't happy doing it and was doing its head twisting thing.
                        Help me keep my horse in peppermints and enjoy a great read! My New York City crime novel, available on Amazon.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          I'm sort surprised that no one picked up on the "pinning his ears". Doesn't that say that the horse is nearing the end of his patience? That he is angry and on the verge of an explosion? If this were a simple evasion, would the horse be communicating anger?

                          Do the horse's owners have any respect for the Barn Owner who seems to recognize that the problem is probably physical?
                          "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                          Thread killer Extraordinaire

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                            I'm sort surprised that no one picked up on the "pinning his ears". Doesn't that say that the horse is nearing the end of his patience? That he is angry and on the verge of an explosion? If this were a simple evasion, would the horse be communicating anger?

                            Do the horse's owners have any respect for the Barn Owner who seems to recognize that the problem is probably physical?

                            In post #4 I say something along the lines of, "sounds like a pissed off horse..." The sad thing is that when he does go off he's the one who is going to pay more than likely.

                            Paula
                            He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Anyone think Chiro, Horse locked up in it's axis?

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                It has nothing to do with pain....
                                you don't know that...

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  We had a horse that we bought for a big chunk of change as my daughter's dressage horse. After only four months of owning him, this behavior as you describe it started and would not go away with dental, saddle fit from Jochen Schleese, rest, bute. We took him to Cornell and he was diagnosed with EMND and it was clear the degeneration of his motor neurons and resulting muscle myopathy had led to a malformation of his back. he is now retired, sitting in our pasture and will be put down at some point. My point is not that this is what is wrong with your horse, but more likely that it is something in his back. It LOOKS like teeth, but in our case it was not. I took video and can share it with you if you like. Inbox me with a cell number and I can text it to you. It is on my phone. (This was a third/fourth level horse.)

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #37
                                    Aye, teeth have now been ruled out for this horse.

                                    Trouble is that the owners think, "It's not teeth. He must be fine and it's him trying to get out of work." Or this is what they said when I told them yesterday that I still thought behaviour was odd and could have a physical component that's not his mouth.
                                    Help me keep my horse in peppermints and enjoy a great read! My New York City crime novel, available on Amazon.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by Crockpot View Post
                                      you don't know that...
                                      If you are quoting me, in the case of the horse I worked with, no it had nothing to do with pain. It was an evasion that started out as a small one and escalated when the owner was persistent but not as firm as they could be and a little intimidated by the behavior.
                                      http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Since you used the present tense I thought you were referring to the OP horse when saying "it has nothing to do with pain" based on your past experience with the other horse.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by enjoytheride View Post
                                          If you are quoting me, in the case of the horse I worked with, no it had nothing to do with pain. It was an evasion that started out as a small one and escalated when the owner was persistent but not as firm as they could be and a little intimidated by the behavior.
                                          None of us can say for sure, but it is possible that this horse is super defensive about his mouth. I ride a mare who used to go all twisted up with her head in the air and her ears pinned back. "Flexing" the rein was the ABSOLUTE worst thing you could do. OK, maybe not the absolute worst - the "trainer" that her owner had riding tried to fix it by smacking her head with a crop (Owner is a smart and kind woman, and never rode with that trainer again.)

                                          In Mare's case, she needed some time under riders who were very steady with their hands. She's gotten much better as she's realized that we're not going to haul on her mouth or give her inconsistent messages. It took some time to get there, though.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X