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Help in valuing HYPOTHETICAL horse

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  • Help in valuing HYPOTHETICAL horse

    So, this mythical creature is:
    Sane, sound, gelding 6-9yrs old
    Confirmed at 1st level ( scores 65%-75%)
    Potential for 3rd/4th, great brain, but not an FEI machine
    Very amateur friendly

    What is the price tag on this horse?
    What is the $ difference if scores are consistently 70s and into 80s?
    Horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
    ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

  • #2
    I might be in the minority but the real value driver for me is the talent for the upper level work, not necessarily 70-80% at TL and 1st.

    I know you're trying to keep your post generalized, but there's a huge difference between a high-scoring 6yo at 1st level and a 9yo. Up to $50K difference in some cases (depending on quality).


    • #3
      The real value for me is finding a horse that has been trained correctly. And that is one that should stay sound for a long, long time even if the conformation isn't perfect (just not confo that works against them ... like back at the knee or extreme sloping pasterns or extreme upright).

      Anywhere from $10,000 to $60,000. Maybe more for something special with a truly known background.


      • #4
        A lot will depend on the breed and location. A Morgan or Quarter Horse as you describe in Iowa...would not bring near as much no matter how nice as an Oldenburg or Hanoverian in Pennsylvania.
        "The sea was angry that day, my friends - like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli"


        • #5
          Breed is a big factor. So I'll give it a go around here if it's not a WB ammie friendly and has the ability to go up to 4th with good scores in 1st between 10k and 20k if it is nicely schooling 2nd.

          If it's an ammie friendly WB with same as above usually between 20k and 50k if it has ability to go higher and great breeding the you are looking at over 50k.
          Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole


          • #6
            Ammy friendly is really what influenced my answer.
            It sounds like a mythical horse to hang on to for 18 months, confirm at third and sell to an ammy for 3-8 times his current value as a bronze horse.
            A lot depends on breed for price. Not an FEI contender means he's probably flashy but not built to sit well.
            chaque pas est fait ensemble


            • #7
              Originally posted by BaroquePony View Post
              The real value for me is finding a horse that has been trained correctly. And that is one that should stay sound for a long, long time even if the conformation isn't perfect (just not confo that works against them ... like back at the knee or extreme sloping pasterns or extreme upright).

              Anywhere from $10,000 to $60,000. Maybe more for something special with a truly known background.
              Agreed! The training is what is going to determine how far the horse can go. Depending of course on whether the new owner can ride well enough to bring the horse along.
              Follow us on facebook - https://www.facebook.com/pages/River...ref=ts&fref=ts


              • #8
                Too many variables. I knew of a well bred WB mare, 6 years old, scoring 70s and into 80s at Training, dabbled in first, won every class she was in, but was NEVER going beyond 2nd level. She just couldn't mentally handle the rigors and "restriction" of collection. She was fine at the lower levels, but ask her to come up, really take contact, and it just wasn't going to happen. Uber flashy mare - price started at $40k, and she ended up selling for $8k. So why can't your hypothetical horse go beyond 3rd/4th? (honestly, if the horse can go 4th, why not PSG - there isn't a lot of difference between 4th 3 and PSG). Is it a mental/physical thing? Is the concern there is no passage in the horse?

                A career lower level horse doesn't hold great value - kind of sad, because there really is a need for these horses. Most RIDERS aren't going beyond 2nd/3rd level, but they still want an FEI prospect...


                • #9
                  Non-warmblood in today's economy...$10k in the midwest (though not likely to get 70-80's on a non-warmblood)

                  Registered warmblood with established show record and rideable gaits without a flying change...$20-40k

                  Registered warmblood with phenomenol gaits (hence the scores near 80%)...the sky is the limit. Why don't you think he can do FEI levels with training? If he can get to 4th, PSG should be doable at least.

                  I'm with those who suggest putting the horse in training with a trainer with proven results and get flying changes on the horse and a few 2nd/3rd level scores this year. If he's that solid at 1st level, he's likely ready to learn changes and collect up more for these levels.

                  3rd level 6-9 year old ammie-friendly registered warmblood with mid-high 60's at rated shows... I'd be asking $50-60k and wouldn't take less than $35 unless I really needed to sell.

                  Just keep in mind that at least for me, the price starts dropping when the horse gets over 10 (unless he's already FEI competitive).


                  • #10
                    Are you looking to buy this mythical horse or sell it?


                    • Original Poster

                      Andy, how does the price change ($) depending on which side of the fence I am on for the sake of this discussion?

                      "Correct" training - if the horse is scoring 70-80s, can those scores be gotten with an incorrectly trained horse? What do you look for in pictures/video, when you ride, or questions you ask to ascertain correct training?

                      While I understand EVERY horse is an FEI prospect, until proven not, some just have more talent for it then others, just like riders.
                      There would be many more happily proficient pairs if sticking to the correct basics was more popular then advancing at all costs.

                      Statistics of our sport indicate that the VAST majority of adult amateur riders never show beyond 3rd level, why should the vast majority care then if the horse is FEI material or not?

                      Thank you for all the input so far.
                      Horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
                      ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.


                      • #12
                        I don't know if I can speak to the vast majority of AAs, but I care if a horse can reach FEI because I'm not looking to be a career national-level rider. All else being equal, the horse that can master the GP is going to be worth a lot more than the horse that tops out at 3rd (or 4th).

                        Like cars. How many drivers go 200mph? 255mph? 261mph? Very, very few. And yet the cars that can hit those speeds are going to be pricier for their talent.

                        Ultimately people pay premium for ability.


                        • #13
                          MZM, I assume Andy is asking which side of the fence you are on, because there is a (sometimes significant) difference between listing/asking price and actual purchase price.


                          • Original Poster

                            What I am asking is "fair market value". As in if horse of "x" parameters is priced at "y" it will sell, and for the price listed. "Blue book" value, if you will. I understand personal circumstances, luck will all play a part in sale/purchase price.
                            What "features" increase price, which are "useless". What are the regional differences?
                            Horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
                            ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.


                            • #15
                              If hypothetical horse is routinely scoring 70s into the 80s at training/first, I'd really like to know why said horse is not an FEI candidate. That is going to make a huge difference in his "blue book" value to me. I would assume without additional information that horse is conformationally challenged and that will likely take maintenance to stay sound & happy even at 3rd/4th.

                              I've seen lots of super nice horses that go on to a nice FEI career that are not scoring like that the lower levels. Those are big time scores if they are coming from training/first at recognized shows. To get those scores at the lower levels the ride usually has to be a)super precise and b)the gaits/implusion/submission nearly perfect. That is an 8 on every movement and all the collectives just for an 80%.

                              As far as the factors that I would like to see as an ammy would be a solid flying change - so third level ready for the riders that are looking for their bronze medal, and a super rideable trot.


                              • #16
                                I think 6 without a flying change is a very different price than 9 without a flying change. At 6, it is reasonable that changes have not been started. At 9, you start to wonder if the horse will be able to do a change if they haven't even been started.

                                As others have said, breed will greatly affect the price also.

                                If the horse is a 6-yr-old warmblood, I would say anywhere from $25K on up but less if it is in an area that is not very "dressage-y."

                                If the horse is a 9-yr-old non-warmblood, I would say maybe in the $15K range.

                                Really, really hard to say though because there are a million variables. You have to find someone willing to pay the asking price but then again it only takes one person to fall in love with the horse.


                                • #17
                                  Folks mentioned breed and location as huge variables that will effect the price. So is HEIGHT. Big price difference for the same horse if he is under 16 hands or over 17.3. Not so many buyers looking outside the mid range of 16-17 hands.
                                  "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller


                                  • Original Poster

                                    If the horse is confirmed 1st level, would you really expect it to have a confirmed clean flying change?
                                    Wouldn't that be more of a green 3rd level, needs polish to show horse vs a 1st level horse?
                                    Horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
                                    ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.


                                    • #19
                                      The difference between 6 and 9 can really mean a lot, as can the difference between tr/1st and 3/4th. The expectations for a 6 yr old or a 1st level horse will be different than those or a 9 yr old or a 3rd level horse. Breed, size, location, all are going to play a big part in pricing.
                                      Last edited by Timex; Mar. 7, 2013, 05:19 PM. Reason: Clarity
                                      Different Times Equestrian Ventures at Hidden Spring Ranch


                                      • #20
                                        It seems as though many of the variables in price such as size, ability, ride-ability and soundness have already been discussed. From past research, horses tend to cost more in FL, CA and parts of New England with smaller pockets of expensive horses around the Chicago area, etc. This doesn't mean you can't find good deals in these areas though. I think the best advice is to look online at horses on dressage websites such as: www.DressageMarket.com and DressageDaily to find comparisons. Having comparables is very helpful whether buying a horse, house or car. Best of luck!