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Prepare for the NH/Western/Alternative INVASION!!

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  • #61
    Please stop confusing horsemanship and natural horsemanship. One has been around for a long time, the other is just a fad.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by rabicon View Post
      This is the way most dressage riders think, ESP at the higher levels and that's great for you and them. For me I want my horse sane and able to handle almost anything.
      Originally posted by alicen View Post
      I don't want to de-sensitize a horse; my goal is to sensitize their responding to me.
      A pretty good distinction, but I think they are two sides of the same coin.

      IMO, horses need to work in "battle conditions." That means what is going on other than what I'm telling the horse is made irrelevant. There seem to be two schools of thought:

      1. Let the horse see it all and he'll go back to doing his job.

      2. Get him so obedient that he won't think to look at things beyond his rider. Horses being flight animals and having free will, this won't work 100% of the time.

      So you have to put them into situations where the regular stuff they know is compounded by those outside distractions. That's the only way they can learn to choose between the stimuli that matter to them. With a distracted horse, you do have to "throw him a bone" by only asking him to do something you already know he can do.

      If you do this right, so the gurus have taught me, the horse *learns* that the way to make his world secure is to focus on the rider. The rider will tell him whether or not an ATV or horse galloping by or the squish mattress he's supposed to walk over actually pose a threat.
      The armchair saddler
      Politically Pro-Cat

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by J-Lu View Post
        "Natural Horsemanship" (TM) is marketed as a training tool for everyone, often (not always but often) characterized by lucrative "short cuts", lots of books/videos/seminars, and expensive doo-dads that supposedly fix all horses.
        Since a couple other posters have also described "Natural Horsemanship" (TM) as a short-cut of some type, I have to ask: A short cut To Where? I don't see most of these people getting their students mounted up. Yes, the Parellis or Clinton Anderson or another new-fangled NH person will write about riding (or training under saddle). But I don't think I have ever spoken to someone who said they were studying one of these guy's courses and talked about the riding part.

        Have you guys met ammies who have drunk the kool-aid and actually ridden it? Or do these folks stop with elaborate in-hand work?
        The armchair saddler
        Politically Pro-Cat

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by mvp View Post
          I think there are multiple explanations.

          3. I'd venture to say that the huge number of divisions in AQHA world plus the tractable QH mind has already made lots of room for the older or timid rider. Heck, I met a trainer at Congress who said that some of her clients owned horses that they only showed in-hand. That sounded beyond bizarre to me, but she said that these clients took it seriously and paid their bills.
          This is also why Western dressage is popular in the Morgan world. There are a lot of older riders who are tired of your usual WP classes and want something more interesting to do, but really only feel comfortable "held in" by Western tack, have horses used to going in a curb, etc. The Western classes for older adult ammies are HUGE at the breed shows. These people already have a riding style, they have appropriately trained horses, and sure some will treat WD like a "pattern class" but it's something new and interesting for them to do, that doesn't require a change of disciplines. At a lot of the Morgan breed shows there are now more WD entries than regular dressage entries.
          You have to have experiences to gain experience.

          1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by mvp View Post
            A pretty good distinction, but I think they are two sides of the same coin.

            IMO, horses need to work in "battle conditions." That means what is going on other than what I'm telling the horse is made irrelevant. There seem to be two schools of thought:

            1. Let the horse see it all and he'll go back to doing his job.

            2. Get him so obedient that he won't think to look at things beyond his rider. Horses being flight animals and having free will, this won't work 100% of the time.
            Just recently an experiment was done testing the anxiety levels of horses who were allowed to stop and look at scary objects and those that had "nunnya bizness" riders. The latter had quicker recovery times and were less reactive over time. I wish I could remember where I read it. Anybody?

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by mvp View Post
              Just yesterday, I had a long discussion with the green horse I am riding about "That stuff over there is nunnya bizness. That horse over there? Nunnya. Over and over, the answer was the same: Nunnya." (and also, "If you have any brain cells left over to think about the ATV outside the arena, then clearly I'm not asking for enough.")

              I do think dressagers are good at giving their horses a lot to think about. Not sure why that doesn't "hold" when there are distractions like umbrellas and whatnot.

              ...

              I have always ridden with other people in the ring or doing whatever. As I see it, I might not have planned to work on desensitization that day, but it's all part of the finished package. And you can't just conjure up other people/horses/equipment when you want it. You have to take those busy days as opportunities when they come.
              When it comes to dressage, I am a true "smurf" as the eventers put it, but when I got my horse, I very quickly realized that it's in her nature to be looky and sometimes spooky. She is one of those mares who would "stand guard" in a herd situation; she has a remarkably strong sense of self-preservation. If I wanted to stay with her, I *had* to learn to deal with it. I could not wrap us in the "bubble" of a quiet indoor arena and expect things to go OK elsewhere.

              So... we tackled spooky things. Over and over. I rode her on the road, did a lot trail riding, deliberately pursued situations that could make her spook.*** I took it slowly of course -- I am in many ways your typical timid adult ammy re-rider -- and while she's not "desensitized" I do now have a very good sense of oncoming trouble, can sit her spook (which is violent but over very quickly), and know she's actually a very trustworthy, solid horse. If she acts goofy at a show, I can't get angry at her; I can do my best to cope, but she is who she is.

              One of the things that drives me crazy in this area is that so many dressage barns either only have an indoor, or if they have an outdoor they don't maintain it very well and/or no one uses it. And then people go to shows -- which are almost all outdoors here -- and wonder why their horses have problems! The NEDA Omnibus just came out and there's a warning to spectators to not make a lot of noise or otherwise spook the horses... It mentions things like umbrellas and flapping blankets, things that a lot of the rest of the horse world just expects their horses to cope with. If we treat ourselves and our horses like "special snowflakes" it's yet another way we put a big wall between ourselves and the rest of the horse world.

              [*** We just had our annual "dealing with geese" ride, as the Canada geese have shown up as they do every March. And that means riding her right toward them, because once she realizes they will move away, she's done being spooky about them. First time, she saw them and slammed on the brakes and snorted, and they moved away. Second time, she looked at them and watched them move away as we walked by. Third time, we trotted toward them and they flew away, and I swear the little mare was proud of herself for that ]
              You have to have experiences to gain experience.

              1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

              Comment


              • #67
                OP, I am not understanding the link you are making between a training article and threads about western dressage. Some posters believe threads that deal with western riding, ie western dressage, should be in the western forum. The article mentions items or training ways that can be used for any discipline.

                jmho
                Hillary Rodham Clinton - the peoples choice for president.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by horsehand View Post
                  There is a disconnect somewhere between understanding and riding dressage, and understanding horses, especially young horses. They have to lead a gelding around with a stud chain, halters and tie area ropes are designed to break, they are held to get on, sedated to shoe, etc. etc. I do not even understand how a grand pre trainer and rider cannot understand how to load a horse in a horse trailer. Something is wrong with this picture.
                  Illustrates my post completely; I totally agree.

                  And I have NEVER met a horseman who told a paying customer to go away. Instead the conversation goes: "oh, you want to learn how to ride and you are 40 yrs old? and you can only come 2x a week? (meanwhile trainer is calculating $30 per lesson @ 2 x per week for the next zillion years...). Fine! What's next week schedule like for you? Harry -- saddle up GlueStik for Ms Jones here!"

                  Ok, sure maybe people like GM might turn them away, but that level of expert doesn't suffer fools lightly. However most of the plain old working stiffs will take a customer no matter what. Consequently many of the people who are teaching aren't much better than the people they are teaching.

                  Not to mention I know a number of dressage trainers who don't have alot of experience in starting green horses themselves....

                  Heavens, even in Germany the "art" of starting young dressage horses is considered sort of a specialty.

                  I wish Ulf Moller would write a book on starting the young horse. And I wonder -- is the very first guy to start them? Or are they "pre-started" by some German cowboy they are keeping in the closet?

                  I don't know about everybody else, but I would have to haul about 6 hrs. to take my young horses to a "non-cowboy" dressage rider to start my youngsters. Yes, we have dressage riders here, and afew good ones (as in GP), but I really don't care for the way they start babies. The "cowboy" is great in terms of producing a calm, forward horse, but I always have to tell him to go bitless, because there is a tendency for the NH guys to back the horse off the bit.

                  So EH, I don't know where you live, but there is a HUGE shortage of qualified horse trainers in my area; at least trainers who can both start a horse u/s AND do all the other stuff (like desensitizing).

                  This is becoming more and more important as I get older and it's harder for me to do the work the youngsters require...

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by quietann View Post
                    This is also why Western dressage is popular in the Morgan world. There are a lot of older riders who are tired of your usual WP classes and want something more interesting to do, but really only feel comfortable "held in" by Western tack, have horses used to going in a curb, etc. The Western classes for older adult ammies are HUGE at the breed shows. These people already have a riding style, they have appropriately trained horses, and sure some will treat WD like a "pattern class" but it's something new and interesting for them to do, that doesn't require a change of disciplines. At a lot of the Morgan breed shows there are now more WD entries than regular dressage entries.
                    Ok, I have never been to a Morgan show. The Morgan is my vet's breed of choice, but other than that I know very little about them.

                    But are you telling me that people who were showing their horses in Morgan WP are now filling up the ranks of the (Morgan) WD? And it "doesn't require a change in disciplines..."

                    I cannot think of two disciplines more exact opposite from one another than WP and dressage. Are they actually calling these class "Western Dressage?" What rules do they use for judging?

                    I simply can't imagine a horse trained to be good enough to place in WP (even a Morgan, who are certainly more high-headed and forward than the average QH) doing anything close to an acceptable USDF test.

                    I mean, their way of movement, way of being ridden, topline, amt. of contact...positioning of the rider...it's ALL different in these two VERY different disciplines.

                    Any videos? I'm actually curious...

                    In the end, I think that WD will be offered more and more at actual breed shows; just like HUS is offered at QH & Arab shows. But these classes are nothing like "real" hunter classes..the ones offered in open shows. Instead, basically they just switch tack for each class and require afew little tweaks to make them different.

                    George Morris doesn't get all bent o/o shape at these classes 'cause he gets this isn't real hunter riding. And the winners at the QH Congress HUS don't dare take their horses into a "real" hunter ring, because they would get their clock cleaned.

                    But it gives more horses a job, supports the horse industry and seems to make alot of people happy....so why not?

                    As long as people don't fool themselves into thinking anything but dressage is Dressage...

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by alicen View Post
                      Just recently an experiment was done testing the anxiety levels of horses who were allowed to stop and look at scary objects and those that had "nunnya bizness" riders. The latter had quicker recovery times and were less reactive over time. I wish I could remember where I read it. Anybody?
                      Pretty sure it was Horse Mag. I remember reading it as well...

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Kyzteke,

                        It's been said and I'll happily say it again: WP is not WD. The gaits and carriage in WP are not the gaits and carriage in WD. What the poster meant by change of discipline is that the person still rides Western with Western gear and Western Aids -not WP 4 beat canters and peanut rolling carriages.

                        Paula
                        He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by quietann View Post
                          The NEDA Omnibus just came out and there's a warning to spectators to not make a lot of noise or otherwise spook the horses... It mentions things like umbrellas and flapping blankets, things that a lot of the rest of the horse world just expects their horses to cope with. If we treat ourselves and our horses like "special snowflakes" it's yet another way we put a big wall between ourselves and the rest of the horse world.
                          A while ago, in another venue, I was amazed at the number of people who were upset about mules competing in dressage because the sight and sound of mules at a dressage competition might scare their horses.

                          Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
                          And I have NEVER met a horseman who told a paying customer to go away. Instead the conversation goes: "oh, you want to learn how to ride and you are 40 yrs old? and you can only come 2x a week? (meanwhile trainer is calculating $30 per lesson @ 2 x per week for the next zillion years...). Fine! What's next week schedule like for you? Harry -- saddle up GlueStik for Ms Jones here!"

                          Ok, sure maybe people like GM might turn them away, but that level of expert doesn't suffer fools lightly. However most of the plain old working stiffs will take a customer no matter what.
                          Wait. Are you saying that a 40 year old who wants to learn to ride and is able to afford and find time for 2 lessons a week ought to be turned away and not given an opportunity to learn because they're too old and not sufficiently dedicated to the task?

                          I hope I've misunderstood what you're trying to say.
                          "Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything
                          that's even remotely true."

                          Homer Simpson

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Gestalt View Post
                            OP, I am not understanding the link you are making between a training article and threads about western dressage. Some posters believe threads that deal with western riding, ie western dressage, should be in the western forum. The article mentions items or training ways that can be used for any discipline.

                            jmho
                            There is a thread about actual WD riding that has attracted exactly...drum roll...one WD rider.

                            The stubborn insistence on discussing it seem to be trollishness.
                            A helmet saved my life.

                            2017 goal: learn to ride like TheHorseProblem, er, a barn rat!

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              RE: A while ago, in another venue, I was amazed at the number of people who were upset about mules competing in dressage because the sight and sound of mules at a dressage competition might scare their horses.

                              I like to tell the story of how I found my new barn -the mixed barn of eventers and Western riders (barrel racers, cow sorters, etc), drivers, and a few dressage riders.

                              My friend Wendy started riding with them while I was riding in a traditional dressage/English environment. She invited me to her first fun day and I was appalled! They were not following those pony club rules that I thought were universal.

                              1. Horses were packed nose to tail in the chute. So much for one horse's length between horses.

                              2. Horses were in the audience -I mean you would be sitting on your bench or chair and and a horse would come by you, visit, etc.

                              3. There were unscheduled horse-related shenanigans going on -close by, like between rows of parked cars.

                              4. People in the audience were LOUD Like whooping, cheering, calling out while the competition was going on!

                              Then I noticed that all the horses and riders were taking it in stride. Nobody was freaking out. The occasional horse that got a little high headed in the chute was not entertained -the kid rode out anyway, did his barrels, obstacles, whatever.

                              As silly as it sounds, I just didn't realize this world existed. It was like they were riding different animals than I was used to.

                              RE: NoSuchPesrson -the poster is referring to another post where the poster seems to imply that people coming late to the riding discipline had little hope of become real horsemen and should be told honestly to do something else.

                              Paula
                              He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Horsemanship is about becoming better horseman, not about horse training. Raising the horseman's skills to the level of the horse, not dragging the horse down to our level. When you see Martin Black or Buck roping or jumping a course (ground poles) on a colts third ride, you quickly appreciate this concept.

                                If you want a robot, go buy a motorcycle.

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Idk about Morgan wd but i love my Morgan even though he is retired. Looking at some videos of wd Morgan I surely would not kick this guy out of my barn. Some retraining here and there I think he'd make a nice one

                                  http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_...?v=rh7Twe2MnVY
                                  Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    I don't think a horse that can be ridden in a loud, distracting places, is a robot. I've learned that, for example, in this new barn no ceremony exists with regards to distractions. They happen, and you ride anyway. It's a unique point of view for me. I guess that's what is meant by raising the rider's skill level to the level of the horse. Their attitude is ride anyway. So I do think this is why their horses do so well away and in new places -not that the horses aren't reacting, but they've learned the still have to work. They pay attention to the riders, the riders engage their horses.

                                    Sometimes, less often now than earlier, I am distracted by distractions and it is everything my trainer could do to keep my attention. LOL -she's doing to me what they do to the horses, "I don't care that Ricky is dragging the ring with the tractor, you can still lead your horse and pay attention to me". Funny; I didn't realize that until this very post. Wow I have an awesome instructor.

                                    Paula
                                    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by quietann View Post
                                      She is one of those mares who would "stand guard" in a herd situation; she has a remarkably strong sense of self-preservation. If I wanted to stay with her, I *had* to learn to deal with it. I could not wrap us in the "bubble" of a quiet indoor arena and expect things to go OK elsewhere.
                                      This gelding I described is somewhat similar. The dude has No Scars on him and an excellent sense of self-preservation. I'd call him brave and level-headed, but *not* a horse to come quietly just because you said so or because you tried to comfort him when he was afraid. He is all business and won't chill until he has satisfied himself that either things are safe, or, I'm the bigger (or busier) thing to worry about.

                                      This kind of horse takes time and intense concentration from the rider. But once you have shown a horse that "honey badger don't give a sH!t" that there is Canadian geese or whatever, it takes less and less time to get his mind back on the job. In other words, the ones that are smart enough and independent enough to look out for themselves are quite trainable because they have the ego-strength it takes to keep thinking under pressure (and they are always thinking about how to make sure their life can get easier/safer).
                                      The armchair saddler
                                      Politically Pro-Cat

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by rabicon View Post
                                        Idk about Morgan wd but i love my Morgan even though he is retired. Looking at some videos of wd Morgan I surely would not kick this guy out of my barn. Some retraining here and there I think he'd make a nice one

                                        http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_...?v=rh7Twe2MnVY
                                        OMG, my ears are bleeding from the music! Pretty horse with a weird tail.
                                        Hillary Rodham Clinton - the peoples choice for president.

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
                                          I don't think a horse that can be ridden in a loud, distracting places, is a robot. I've learned that, for example, in this new barn no ceremony exists with regards to distractions. They happen, and you ride anyway. It's a unique point of view for me. I guess that's what is meant by raising the rider's skill level to the level of the horse. Their attitude is ride anyway. So I do think this is why their horses do so well away and in new places -not that the horses aren't reacting, but they've learned the still have to work. They pay attention to the riders, the riders engage their horses.
                                          I agree to a certain point. I have heard that the horses that race in the KY Derby get hit with a level of noise they have never encountered before. They've heard crowds and equipment, but at the derby, when they come out of the tunnel the "roar" of the crowd is deafening. No amount of training can prepare a horse of that caliber (sensitivity) to that.
                                          Hillary Rodham Clinton - the peoples choice for president.

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