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Horse with no brakes

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  • #61
    Originally posted by ken View Post
    OMG
    Wait, what did you think "CTJ" really meant? Going to church? LOL.....no.

    Comment


    • #62
      an unbalanced horse can not stop as requested..... it will take them time to do so.

      so someone yanking a horse around because it cant stop as requested is just showing bad horsemanship.

      and yes, i have seen horses that because of the rider are so on the forehand that it is difficult for them to stop - do they? sure, but only after many steps

      why blame the horse?

      it is as always the handlers problem. the handler needs to figure out what the issue is and then work to change it. the horse, as always , can only be a horse.

      eta: i think several of the folks here need CTJ moments - not the poor horse!

      Comment


      • #63
        Because the issue, as the OP presented it, is not that the horse will not stop. The issue is that it has been "bolting and tearing around" since the weather got cold.

        I suspect that a number of posters here have never actually ridden a horse that bolts.
        "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

        Comment


        • #64
          i have seen horses that because of the rider are so on the forehand that it is difficult for them to stop - do they? sure, but only after many steps
          And you think this qualifies as bolting?

          I'm with EH here, it sounds as though as number of posters have never actually ridden a horse that bolts. Bolting is quite dangerous.

          Basic rules of good horsemanship;
          #1 Safety of humans
          #2 Safety of equines
          #3 Everything else


          See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by nhwr View Post
            And you think this qualifies as bolting?

            I'm with EH here, it sounds as though as number of posters have never actually ridden a horse that bolts. Bolting is quite dangerous.

            Basic rules of good horsemanship;
            #1 Safety of humans
            #2 Safety of equines
            #3 Everything else


            Thank you so much for saying this!

            Remember, my friend was hurt on Thursday when her well-trained horse spooked and bolted. The horse wasn't just ignoring her aids to halt; the horse was terrified and racing around the arena, creating a dangerous situation for my friend, me, my horse, and the bolting horse (in that order of importance) A one rein stop or pulley rein would have stopped the horse quickly.

            Sometimes it's not about "dres-saaagh", people. It's about basic safety, which is MORE IMPORTANT than a horse trained perfectly to the aids. Which is one of the reasons I don't like sharing a warm-up with "serious" dressage riders who are so busy being perfect that they lose awareness of the other horses and riders around them.

            OP knows her situation is dangerous and wants to fix that.
            You have to have experiences to gain experience.

            1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by mbm View Post
              an unbalanced horse can not stop as requested..... it will take them time to do so.

              so someone yanking a horse around because it cant stop as requested is just showing bad horsemanship.

              and yes, i have seen horses that because of the rider are so on the forehand that it is difficult for them to stop - do they? sure, but only after many steps

              why blame the horse?

              it is as always the handlers problem. the handler needs to figure out what the issue is and then work to change it. the horse, as always , can only be a horse.

              eta: i think several of the folks here need CTJ moments - not the poor horse!
              Kind of.

              Certainly an unbalanced horse might take a couple of steps to stop from the walk (and maybe a bit longer from the trot or canter). But there's a big difference between a few steps and what the OP is describing.

              I fully agree that this is a problem most likely caused by human error. I fully agree that determining the source of the error is what must be done. I don't "blame" the horse; but neither do I excuse a failure to comply with the aids. So while I don't use the word "blame" I will impose a "correction" when the horse fails to properly comply with a cue. That's part of the "bedrock principles" of equine training.

              G.
              Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

              Comment


              • #67
                fwiw, my comment was to the thread in general and not the OP specifically. I had already given the OP my opinion on her other thread and on this thread there were already a couple posts that had great advice. ....

                it sounds to me like the OP doesn't have the needed skills yet to handle the situation so should find a good pro to help her.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by mbm View Post
                  an unbalanced horse can not stop as requested..... it will take them time to do so.

                  so someone yanking a horse around because it cant stop as requested is just showing bad horsemanship.

                  and yes, i have seen horses that because of the rider are so on the forehand that it is difficult for them to stop - do they? sure, but only after many steps

                  why blame the horse?

                  it is as always the handlers problem. the handler needs to figure out what the issue is and then work to change it. the horse, as always , can only be a horse.

                  eta: i think several of the folks here need CTJ moments - not the poor horse!
                  Because I am not talking about a horse that has a hard time stopping. If the horse is having a hard time stopping, I'm plenty willing to nicely teach the horse whatever it needs to know to stop properly. I'm not talking about a CTJ meeting with a horse who is trying to stop, but flailing around in his attempts to do so. I'm not talking about a willing animal.

                  A horse who is giving you the proverbial finger and bolting is a different story. That is dangerous behavior. It needs to be squashed as quickly as possible. There needs to be no question in the horses mind that is unacceptable.

                  Have you ever been on a horse who bolts? It's not particularly fun. I own one. My ancient awesome lesson horse of a mare is a bolter outdoors and will be till the day she dies. She was, once upon a time, worth a lot of money and was a high goal polo pony. Then she started bolting and no one stopped it. Then they donated her to a university's arena polo program. Then she got passed around before I got her. At this point the behavior is too ingrained and I don't think it's possible to stop it (based on the attempts of several pros). So now, she never gets to leave the arena. Which sucks. She'd be an awesome field hunter since nothing scares her and she LOVES to jump.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I rode a bolter for several years, as in she figured out how to make people stop riding her by launching into a dead run whenever they did something she didn't like. To be fair to her she probably had some awful people riding her.

                    I used a running martingale set really short and when she bolted I yanked her to an ugly halt then asked her to go forward nicely again. Once she realized that bolting didn't get her out of work the bolting slowly went away, but never entirely.
                    http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      fwiw, my point is that a bolter is created by someone who doesn't have the skills to prevent it.

                      therefore that person should seek appropriate help.

                      and yes, i have ridden bolters - very very scary.... but still i didn't have the skills at the time to deal with it. that is why it happened more than once....

                      when a horse truly bolts (from fear or what have you) you do what you have to do.... but a horse that just wont stop? there are some big holes there.

                      i personally would not get on a horse who didn't have a well trained and tested WHOA. and sure that well trained and tested whoa might not work if a horse truly bolts from fear, but it will work 99.99% of the time

                      the older i get and the longer i have been in this game the more i realize that most of the training issues are about the human and not the horse .

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                        Here's how we do it with youngsters (and how I'm doing it now with a coming four year old).

                        Define the task: The Object of the Exercise is that the horse moves its feet on command and stops moving them on command.

                        The easiest venue for this is a round pen. You don't have to worry about other stuff. This works on a longe line, it's just more of a pain.

                        Put the horse on the rail and let them settle. Then tell them to "walk." Use whatever system you use for ground work, but they must "move their feet" when you tell them to. Keep them moving at a walk. Watch them carefully. In a while (maybe just a few minutes, maybe much longer) they will begin to show signs of wanting to stop. Don't. Keep them moving another circuit or two until you are SURE that they are ready to stop. Then command "whoa." Profusely reward the stop. Let them rest for a bit. Then have them walk more. When you see readiness to stop then go a bit longer, then stop. Reward profusely. Let them rest a bit. Do it again.

                        Note that this is not a "run them to exhaustion" routine but a "discipline building" routine. Don't let them move faster than a walk. Get three stops and then quit for the day. Come back tomorrow and do it again. Defer saddle work for a week, or more, until you get a consistent stop on command.

                        Then add the tack but stay in the round pen. Work 'till you get a consistent response.

                        Then mount up. Stay in the round pen. Begin with an assistant giving the command. If the response stays correct and consistent then let the rider give the commands while the assistant observes (and assists with ground commands if necessary). Then remove the assistant. Then move to a larger venue. Then go out on the trail.

                        If you've done this correctly then you've filled in a massive hole in the horse's training and re-installed the "brakes." You can now move on down the road.

                        With a green horse this doesn't take all that long. With a badly broke horse it can take much longer. But, to quote one of my guiding lights (Col. Alois Podhajsky), "I have time."

                        If you don't have time or if you don't have patience then find a "leather and iron" solution. But be aware that the hole will always be there.

                        G.
                        This is great advice!
                        Unrepentant carb eater

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          My guy explored the whole spectrum of misbehavior, from balking to bucking to bolting. He was, shall we say, rather spoiled when I bought him. Anyway, when the bolting started, my first reaction was to try to slow him down. Seat, reins, wall...in any case, it didn't really fix the problem. What did work was sticking with him and asking for more whenever he started to slow down on his own. Every time I'd ask him to stop or trot and he blew me off, around we'd go again in what would have been a medium canter had it had any sense of order. Took only a week or two for him to decide he didn't like playing that game anymore.

                          He was a petulant bolter, though, and kept his sense of self preservation through it all. I might not take this route with a confirmed or scary bolter.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Haven't read the whole thread but will say I had a bolting pony here for a while. Tried to help a friend out with him. Started from the ground up. He was a bolter and bucker all in one at the same time. Started with ground work, lunging, ground driving, manners. Pony lunged like a dream once he got it. Whoa was perfect, even with tack on. Yet you get on his back and a few rides he would be ok and then it was on again. I got the buck out of him but could never get the bolt out. Ruled out pain, tack etc. He was uncontrollable. Even when trying a one rein stop I would pull his nose around and he could still run straight. Never seen such a thing. It was crazy and to dangerous. Got him to chill if you could ride it out and he'd be fine from then on in the ride. He had to go back and hasn't been ridden since, he was just to dangerous and we spent a year trying to get this out of him.

                            People a bolting horse is not a horse in the forehand that needs 3 or 4 steps to stop. I bolting horse is dangerous and scary. Just a few years ago a teenager was killed by what they believe is her horse bolting. You have to take this seriously and not worry about oh is he on the forehand. Yes, more than likely when he is running Mach 10 around the arena he is on the forehand that not the issue at all. I'd suggest possibly finding someone that is very good at bolting horses and rehabbing them. Teach a one rein stop and start back on the lunge. I would not get on this horse again until he is perfect on the lunge. If he bolts on the lunge use a chain over his nose and give Him a nice correction with the whoa if that doesn't work you may have to snatch him in on the circle and it may not be pretty or nice but unless this gets under control he is going to hurt someone if not kill someone. Good luck.
                            Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              With a history in racing it is incredibly unfair to classify this horse as simply a 'bolter'. If he was raced at all he was able to do a job once upon a time without checking out and my guess is the retraining has not be effective and he is still confused or mismanaged.

                              My first really tough bolter I also mismanaged. I attempted to "dominate" the horse only to learn that several trainers later she could not be "dominated".

                              I found a trainer who appealed to her work ethic and I myself trail rode her running her long periods to show her that bolting there was a non-starter. The process was a little rough for me having to circle the wagons with many mistakes.

                              In the end she did not enjoy dressage with an AA... With a better rider? Probably would have been fine but with me still learning (and now too) she simply was not ready for more "mistakes".

                              We refit her as a jumper and she was placing within the year with her new owner who put jumps in front of her whenever she was tempted to bolt

                              The last few I have dealt with more tactfully and understood that blind resistance is just that... Blind. Its a reaction to something. Work? Maybe, but with a tb I doubt it. Not enough woork? Probably. Most likely though you are trying to stifle the forward in an avoidance to what you know will end up being a loss of control.

                              What the horse needs is someone who does not anticipate this or start the cycle with their guess that it will happen again.

                              One rein stops can only do so much....
                              ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
                              http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Training as a racehorse doesn't teach a horse to bolt. Racehorses are taught to rate (go from a gallop to a canter) when they breeze. They don't stop on a dime, they can't. But they'll slow down, they respond to the aids they are given.
                                Bolters simply don't respond to aids-that why it's an issue of submission.

                                It should recognized that galloping it out or stopping and getting off to lunge are essentially the same thing-it is giving the horse a choice; be submissive to the aids or work harder. It works.
                                See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

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