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Horse with no brakes

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  • #21
    Start at the beginning

    I agree with Guilherme. This horse is not broke. Back to the beginning. Whoa Go Walk Trot Canter. Notice...whoa is first. It starts in hand. Does he whoa in hand? Does he stand as long as you say? Does he relax and stand quietly while being groomed? Do you compensate for his unwillingness to stand whenever you handle him? The next goal is to find methods of praise. Is he food motivated? Does he know what "good boy" means? Does he acknowledge a reprimand...I use Aaaack! or Quit! not ever whoa unless I mean whoa...halt, stop and stand...though I also teach Stand as a command(gonna be here awhile...relax).

    If he does NOT stand or whoa in hand there can be a number of issues that can cause this and they range from simple lack of basic training to being a very high energy horse who has trouble accepting any calmness to a list of potential medical problems from pain from mouth to tail or metabolic issues.

    Does this seem like a normal horse...does he stand out with his buddies, resting in the sun, relaxing between meals, is he a play instigator...as unwilling to stand and relax as he is undersaddle. Is he 'twitchy' about being groomed or blanketed or tacked up? Does he focus or does he have no attention span? What does he do about treats...not interested...does he attack for treats, as impatient as he is about standing...or does he focus for treats?

    Also, what are the expectations for this horse...is he to be the horses of a novice...is he a market horse for reasle(as what)...is he to be a novices trail horse or a top level eventer. Is there anything he really LIKES to do? PatO

    Comment


    • #22
      Go back to your original post

      http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...rse-won-t-halt!

      You had a lot of great advice. I would suggest going back and rethinking what you did at that time. Obviously you didn't stay on a plan and follow through. You may need to keep a log of goals and accomplishments to keep working on the end goal of having a well broke horse. A log would also help you and the owner work together. In this day and age you can use short video to show what you have done and what she is doing so you are both on the same page. Some horses are hard but often they are very interesting and challenging and the sense of accomplishment can be huge. PatO

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by SisterToSoreFoot View Post
        I'm not sure this is going to be a popular response--this being a dressage forum where we strive for light aids and nuanced riding--but you simply need to yank him to a stop. You have to get nasty before this gets better. It's a safety issue and a respect issue--not a bit issue. Believe me, he WILL stop in a snaffle if you make it hurt a bit.

        I'm sure people will disagree with me, but just like you tap with a whip when your leg is ignored, you give a sharp pull and MAKE the horse stop when you're being ignored. It is dangerous and counterproductive to try to nuance this horse out of this--that hasn't worked--so you need to show him there are CONSEQUENCES when he ignores you.

        My young horse tried this a bit out in an open field when he was just learning to jump. My trainer made it clear that I must STOP him, even if its ugly, or the behavior would escalate. A few times of a "hard stop" and he learned to listen and respect my aids. Now we can gallop in open fields without issue.

        YOU are in control here. Don't worry about pretty for the time being.

        I completely agree. I did this with my pony when he ran, but I kind of quickly alternate pressure (left reign right reign) just to tell him no running. I think it's very productive in showing them who's in charge.

        I have nice, soft hands, and I'm pretty keen on using my seat to slow a horse down, but I don't tolerate any running lol

        Comment


        • #24
          Ruling out health issues. Have you tried lunging with a nose chain? It may assist you in "getting your point across". It sounds like you need to go back to the beginning (again) and get a good groundwork/foundation before you get back on. If he doesn't respect you on the ground, it isn't going to get better in the saddle :/

          Comment


          • #25
            I really feel sorry for this OTTB after reading the last thread and now some of the heinous suggestions on this thread. Churns my stomach to think the OP may actually try some of this.
            Since you are asking the same question again, it's clear this horse is beyond your skill set. Please get him to someone qualified and capable before more damage is done.
            www.destinationconsensusequus.com
            chaque pas est fait ensemble

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #26
              Thanks for replies. Can respond in detail later. He's not my horse, so he came to me far worse than he is now. Regular turnout, and owner keeps him utd on everything including teeth. Of course pain has been ruled out. When I say gear, I mean anytime he realizes he is being worked, aka not just a halter and lead rope. Could be saddle and bridle, surcingle, or just lunge line. Any combo. For those saying it is not the horse's fault, but my own, I disagree to a point. He knows darn well what I am asking and he prefers to continue as he wishes, as many have said. I asked how to be more effective at getting my point across, and get him to know I mean business. I am not causing this problem as he came to me this way, but I am having trouble fixing it due to this guy not responding to the typical cues.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #27
                Please remember this is my friend's horse. I can only do so much, so do not beat up on me for not getting him to a qualified person.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by OceansAway View Post
                  Please remember this is my friend's horse. I can only do so much, so do not beat up on me for not getting him to a qualified person.
                  Well, you did ask!

                  Sometimes folks forget that this is a forum where "full contact posting" is rather common. In other places there's a bit more "sweetness and light." Here there's better information but maybe not in the "spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down" tradition.

                  Your friend has an unbroke horse. A green knows how to stop. They just don't know that they have to do it when their human says to. Training remedies this lack of knowledge.

                  The described horse knows how to stop. They just don't do it when told to. Is this a failure of training on the part of the human or a defect in the horse? There's no way to know from what's written.

                  What we do know is that the OP has "hit a wall" in working with the horse. When any trainer hits a wall they have to stop, figure out what constitutes the "wall," and then how to go over, under, around, or through it. Or maybe how to demolish it or make a hole in it. If I were the OP I'd get somebody to video a training session. Video both the horse and the trainer/rider. Then watch the video in the comfort of a nice chair and see what is going on. The lens does not lie. If the fault is in the horse that will show up. If the fault is in the rider/trainer that will show up, too. Video, fairly done, is a real "smug basher."

                  Put another way, the video camera is the greatest equine training aid ever invented. But it's not for those who can't handle criticism.

                  I'm not suggesting the OP can't handle what the video will show. I'm just making a fair warning.

                  Out of curiosity, does the horse stand quietly for mounting and stand quietly while the rider settles them self in the saddle? Or does the horse step off on it's own?

                  G.
                  Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by LilyandBaron View Post
                    The OP said nothing about ruling out health issues first, so I would never say to "discipline the damn horse" until health issues, including tack fit, are ruled out. OP said the horse listens to whoa in warmer seasons, and before any tack is added - specifically noted saddle and lunging gear. So perhaps the saddle hurts a cold back? Maybe there's arthritis aggravated by the cold? And if the horse is running around like a ninny on the lunge, not stopping, then that becomes the training moment - you don't just ignore disobedience on the ground and get on for more disobedience. You MAKE the horse stop on the lunge - period, but only after you explore WHY the horse is having issues.

                    I truly hope OP doesn't just assume horse is a jerk for no reason. I would suspect ulcers - my horse had seasonal ulcers - when the grass died in the fall and he switched to just hay, they'd flare up. Most horses don't just decide to act up for no reason in the winter - it's normally due to lack of turnout &/or pain in the cold weather.
                    Fine to rule out health issues, but bolting is not usually a health issue.

                    And I agree with you completely that you deal with disobedience on the longe line in the same way as you do in the saddle. You make the horse stop, period. Of course!

                    And you are right again that that a horse is not usually a jerk for no reason. But most times the fact that a horse CONTINUES REPEATEDLY to be a jerk is because he gets away with it. The horse becomes ranker and ranker. I have seen many a horse that does a little bolt (or buck or rear) because he feels frisky and the wind gets up his tail. But it is how the rider DEALS with that that will turn the horse into a chronic, dangerous runaway or into a good solid citizen. Let the horse scare you once and if you back off and don't deal with the problem, then he WILL do it again and again.

                    What I was responding to btw was not your post, but the people who are talking about using gadgets or stronger bits (which will cause other problems) or reschooling the horse, which the OP described as schooled but disobedient.
                    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      This horse needs to respect your aids period. They can only be soft and obediant when they know the job.

                      1. DO NOT put a double bridle in the horse's mouth...you may make other problems occur when you over bit and haul on the mouth. The horse may even start going up and that is the last thing you need.

                      2. ABSOLUTELY, no draw reins. That can also backfire on you. Not to mention they can make horses heavy if not done properly.

                      Remember the horse needs to respect the bit you are using and your aids.

                      When training I make a wall and I stick to it. Start at the walk and make the horse stop and start frequently. He needs to learn that when you ask he listens. As soon as he starts doing that well then graduate to the other gaits. Lots of transitions. The longer you ride between halts the more the horse may ignore you so change it up. If he starts to bolt tight circle till he stops and return to walk. Don't make it personal but be TOUGH.
                      The rider casts his heart over the fence,
                      the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

                      –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I have TBs and they can be forward on cold days and want to blow me off. First, they MUST stop when I say stop. So, to get them to put their "listening ears" on, here are my tricks:

                        Lunging (in gear), keep the circle smaller and then plan your transitions so that they get a warning "ho" and then you basically don't let them turn (body language here) and they have to go into the wall or stop. They usually decide to stop. If they try to bolt by you (and they will), they get a come to jesus yank on the line and a repeat question at the next well w/ the whip very clearly in front. If they try to blow by the whip, they get smacked. My sensitive TBs rarely, if ever, have taken the "through the whip" route. rinse and repeat until they transition down every time.

                        Under saddle - you don't need harsher bits or yanking even to teach a real stop under saddle. I saw a brilliant demo of it for a very strong horse where the trainer simply stopped the horse in the middle of a jump combination. I tried it and it is very effective on the strong, disobedient horse. (it won't work on a truly panicked horse). But you just "STOP". Your entire body, seat, back, hands, arms, everything, says WHOA. And you don't move. Its worked every single time on my horse with a erm, rideability issue, between jumps like a charm. No yanking, no pulling, just a hard stop on the aids. And hold until they stop. Then release everything, pat on the neck and move on.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          I have two, apparently contradictory, but really complementary, suggestions.

                          1- You say he is fine in halter and lead rope, but disobeys with tack on. Go all the way back to basics. Do soem serious
                          work in hand with a halter and lead rope (chain over the nose MAY be needed). Think of it as being like dog obedience. Walk EXACTLY by my side. Stop when I say so, not 3 strides later. Walk when I say so, not 3 seconds later. If the horse ignores you, escalate to the point that he responds, but no more, and immediately reward. NEVER ignore a disobebdience or late response.

                          When that is confirmed, add some trot in hand. Same parameters. You make the transition when and where I say.

                          Next add the saddle, and do the same thing. It doesn't matter what tack he is wearing, it is the same game.

                          Then take the saddle off and put the bridle on. When that is confirmed put both saddle and bridle on, but still work in hand.

                          Next, with the person on the ground still the one in control, put someone on his back, and go through the same exercises. The person on his back is not riding, just sitting there. So he learns it is still the "same game" with a person on his back.

                          When that is confirmed, have the person on his back pick up the reins, while the person on the ground has a lead rope, and is still in control. Have the person on his back start to give the ridden aids- initially at the same time as the person on the ground, but then a fraction of a second earlier. As the horse starts to respond to the aids form the rider, the person on the ground only intervenes when the horse ignores the ridden aids.

                          Then take away the leadrope, but the person on the ground still walks in the same position, though the rider is giving the aids. Then the ground person walks a foot or so further away, then another foot or so further away, until the horse is responding just to the rider.

                          If the horse starts ignoring the riders, or leaders, aids, you go back to the step where he obeys.

                          You can do the same thing for lunging, with one person leading the horse, and another person standing in the middle with the longe line and whip. Initially the person leading is giving all the aids, but gradually you add the aids form the person in the middle, and reduce the aids from the person leading. And so on.

                          2 - If you get in a situation where the horse ignores the aids, and you can not escalate enough to get a response, then make the horse keep going long after the horse wants to stop. If you are going to do this, you have to have more patience than your horse. It is not enough to keep going until he is READY to stop. You have to keep going until he REALLY REALLY WANTS to stop. It could easily be an extra hour.
                          Janet

                          chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            This is the problem. With the exception of a couple, I keep hearing how I must make him stop because I am training him to not respond. Well I know this! I am asking HOW to make him stop so I can start retraining. I cannot retrain if I cannot get him to stop in the first place.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by SisterToSoreFoot View Post
                              I'm not sure this is going to be a popular response--this being a dressage forum where we strive for light aids and nuanced riding--but you simply need to yank him to a stop. You have to get nasty before this gets better. It's a safety issue and a respect issue--not a bit issue. Believe me, he WILL stop in a snaffle if you make it hurt a bit.

                              I'm sure people will disagree with me, but just like you tap with a whip when your leg is ignored, you give a sharp pull and MAKE the horse stop when you're being ignored. It is dangerous and counterproductive to try to nuance this horse out of this--that hasn't worked--so you need to show him there are CONSEQUENCES when he ignores you.

                              My young horse tried this a bit out in an open field when he was just learning to jump. My trainer made it clear that I must
                              STOP him, even if its ugly, or the behavior would escalate. A few times of a "hard stop" and he learned to listen and respect my aids. Now we can gallop in open fields without issue.

                              YOU are in control here. Don't worry about pretty for the time being.
                              This. A million times this. You can worry about nice when he's safe.
                              Originally posted by dizzywriter
                              My saddle fits perfectly well. It might be a little tight around the waist, but I take care of that with those spandex things.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                                If your horse has "no brakes" it's because they weren't installed back at the "factory."

                                Put another way, your horse isn't broke to ride.

                                So, what would you do to teach an unbroke horse to "whoa"? Do that with this horse.

                                G.
                                That is the best response yet. If you cannot control him, he isn't broke. If you do not know how to train an unstarted horse well, then you cannot help him. It is not about dressage training. It is about very basic horsemanship from the bottom up.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by OceansAway View Post
                                  This is the problem. With the exception of a couple, I keep hearing how I must make him stop because I am training him to not respond. Well I know this! I am asking HOW to make him stop so I can start retraining. I cannot retrain if I cannot get him to stop in the first place.
                                  You have gotten a number of suggestions. When riding- (1) One rein stop (also known as pulley rein-just google it) or (2) tight circle.

                                  When longeing-(1) chain over nose, (2) whip in front or (3) into the wall.

                                  If you are unable or unwilling to do any of these things, then the horse has got your number, and he needs a braver and/or more skilled rider.
                                  "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Here's a good illustration of the pulley rein.

                                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFt-yJhVZg8

                                    I also use the method of turning or "doubling" the horse (pulling his head back to the knee) and have never had one actually fall.
                                    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #38
                                      Eclectic, I did not say I have gotten no suggestions, but I should have been more clear about what I do mean. I was simply trying to illustrate the point that posts telling me to "just stop him" are not helpful, as they don't tell me HOW to produce the halt, which is what I was actually asking. I'm sorry you took that as me being too unskilled or willing to try the suggestions I was given.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        I have two, apparently contradictory, but really complementary, suggestions.

                                        1- You say he is fine in halter and lead rope, but disobeys with tack on. Go all the way back to basics. Do soem serious work in hand with a halter and lead rope (chain over the nose MAY be needed). Think of it as being like dog obedience. Walk EXACTLY by my side. Stop when I say so, not 3 strides later. Walk when I say so, not 3 seconds later. If the horse ignores you, escalate to the point that he responds, but no more, and immediately reward. NEVER ignore a disobebdience or late response.

                                        When that is confirmed, add some trot in hand. Same parameters. You make the transition when and where I say.

                                        Next add the saddle, and do the same thing. It doesn't matter what tack he is wearing, it is the same game.

                                        Then take the saddle off and put the bridle on. When that is confirmed put both saddle and bridle on, but still work in hand.

                                        Next, with the person on the ground still the one in control, put someone on his back, and go through the same exercises. The person on his back is not riding, just sitting there. So he learns it is still the "same game" with a person on his back.

                                        When that is confirmed, have the person on his back pick up the reins, while the person on the ground has a lead rope, and is still in control. Have the person on his back start to give the ridden aids- initially at the same time as the person on the ground, but then a fraction of a second earlier. As the horse starts to respond to the aids form the rider, the person on the ground only intervenes when the horse ignores the ridden aids.


                                        Then take away the leadrope, but the person on the ground still walks in the same position, though the rider is giving the aids. Then the ground person walks a foot or so further away, then another foot or so further away, until the horse is responding just to the rider.

                                        If the horse starts ignoring the rider's, or leader's, aids, you go back to the step where he obeys.

                                        You can do the same thing for lunging, with one person leading the horse, and another person standing in the middle with the longe line and whip. Initially the person leading is giving all the aids, but gradually you add the aids form the person in the middle, and reduce the aids from the person leading. And so on.

                                        2 - If you get in a situation where the horse ignores the aids, and you can not escalate enough to get a response, then make the horse keep going long after the horse wants to stop. If you are going to do this, you have to have more patience than your horse. It is not enough to keep going until he is READY to stop. You have to keep going until he REALLY REALLY WANTS to stop. It could easily be an extra hour.
                                        Last edited by Janet; Feb. 1, 2013, 01:10 PM.
                                        Janet

                                        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by OceansAway View Post
                                          Eclectic, I did not say I have gotten no suggestions, but I should have been more clear about what I do mean. I was simply trying to illustrate the point that posts telling me to "just stop him" are not helpful, as they don't tell me HOW to produce the halt, which is what I was actually asking. I'm sorry you took that as me being too unskilled or willing to try the suggestions I was given.

                                          OceansAway-then just TRY something!
                                          "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

                                          Comment

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