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Anybody know this Stubben? Possibly a Schultheis?

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  • Anybody know this Stubben? Possibly a Schultheis?

    So, I am trying out a very old Stubben my trainer has had sitting in a tack room for who knows how long. I just recently switched from h/j to dressage, so this will be my first dressage saddle and obviously does not need to be anything special. She's offered it to me for $200. However, I want to know more about it. I've tried to research it and I think it's between 40-50 years old, but doesn't look terrible considering. The pictures below are after I've cleaned it once. I've sent the same info and pics to Stubben's information e-mail, but wonder if anyone has some personal experience with this type of saddle. I'm interested if anyone knows what kind of leather is used and it's definite age. Thanks!

    It has the Johns Krefeld saddlery sticker on each side.

    The one above I think is interesting because the skirt's nail has no brand like the somewhat earlier models.

    The one above is a design under the left flap's stirrup leather keeper.

    The one above is on both of the buckle guards.

  • #2
    I'd guess Parzival or Aramis. They are built on the same tree as the old Tristan's. They were very similar, but had different leather options.

    I say $200 is a fair price. The saddle is 20+ years old. I'm not exactly sure when they were made. I have an Aramis and absolutely love it. I paid $300 for mine on eBay a couple years ago. I love the saddle. It's comfortable. It's a very minimalist saddle though. It will make you *ride* and learn to balance on your own. It is not a 'secure' feeling saddle as in it won't hold you in position. I love it though. It's a really close contact ride.


    • Original Poster

      Yes, when I rode in it it definitely didn't force me into a position, which I appreciate because I need to reform my muscle memory out of a hunter. It was made in Germany, that I know, so I'm glad it missed being manufactured in Ireland or Switzerland, because I've heard the newer Stubbens' quality doesn't even compare to the old models. Thanks for your input!


      • #4
        Do you have any photos of the panels? & the gullet channel?

        Unless the flocking has been maintained, it likely needs to be completely re-done as the wool compresses & forms "knots" so have a saddle fitter examine it.

        Many older saddles have gullet channels which narrow towards the cantle so be aware of what your horse needs - definitely check this before using the saddle much.

        Definitely a nice find if you have a horse that fits the saddle


        • Original Poster

          I was already thinking about reflocking it since I know nothing about it's history, but here's some more pictures. The bottom is a little more scuffed up haha


          • #6
            The panels look to be in fairly good condition BUT if the leather has been allowed to become very dry, make sure you condition well (Hamanol is great stuff - multiple thin coats, rather than saturating) before attempting any reflocking.
            As expected the gullet channel does narrow considerably towards the cantle (much too narrow for some horses, fine for others) so check this before investing any $ in adjusting.


            • Original Poster

              Thank you; that's very helpful!

              Is the gullet design something that was originally there and narrowed more over time? Is the design specialized for a specific type of conformation or was it more of a fashion/fad?

              EDIT: As I'm researching saddle fit more, I am growing more dubious about this saddle and how it fits my horse. The changing gullet width alto brought to my attention is making me very concerned. Thinking I may have to pass on this one and save up for a newer model.
              Last edited by DressageConvert; Jan. 4, 2013, 03:40 PM.


              • #8
                The gullet was designed like that. I have a WIDE Arabian. The narrowing gullet on his Aramis doesn't seem to bother him in the slightest. Its still wide enough to be off of his spine even on the narrow part (it's fit has been confirmed by two different saddle fitters). I'd not necessarily discount this saddle because of that. It still could fit the horse.

                Yes, Stubben's Hammanol is fantastic. I also waterproof mine with Australian Leather Keep or mink oil as I ride in pretty much any weather.


                • #9
                  It's a Romanus.
                  ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

                  Originally posted by LauraKY
                  I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
                  HORSING mobile training app


                  • #10
                    I am guessing the buckle guards were put on at a later time, as they are "promoting" a specialty shop for carriages in the city of Krefeld.

                    I don't think the saddle is that old. Late 80s to early 90s.... I used to ride in one of those


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DressageConvert View Post
                      Thank you; that's very helpful!

                      Is the gullet design something that was originally there and narrowed more over time? Is the design specialized for a specific type of conformation or was it more of a fashion/fad?
                      Design - sometimes the panels can be adjusted to slightly widen this channel, or the area where the channel narrows the most may be curved up away from your horse's back (comfirm that this holds true with a rider & at WTC).
                      Horses may be more/less sensitive to the pressure, but damage to muscles & nerves may occur regardless of how reactive a horse may appear; your vet, chiro, equine therapist, saddle fitter etc should all be able to demonstrate how your horse's physiology interacts with this saddle - watch this video for a demonstration.

                      EDIT: As I'm researching saddle fit more, I am growing more dubious about this saddle and how it fits my horse. The changing gullet width alto brought to my attention is making me very concerned. Thinking I may have to pass on this one and save up for a newer model.
                      If you're able to test ride in this saddle, have lessons, take video (or watch your trainer ride your horse in this saddle) that will tell you alot; if you're in the US, there may be a local Stubben saddle fitter that can come by - Stubben still has a fair number of clearance saddles available.

                      Contact any local saddle reps & try as many different saddles as you can: you'll learn alot


                      • #12
                        The saddle isnt that old it has/had the enamel gullet heads and the squares.
                        --Luck is what happens when preparedness meets opportunity--


                        • Original Poster

                          This is the response I got from Stubben.

                          "Sorry for the delay. I have had several people try and identify this saddle with no luck. It is definitely a Stubben, the 3 pronged symbol is one of ours and the metal plate both indicate that. The head nail is a mystery since it does not resemble any old or newer ones Stubben uses. It could have been put on by someone who did some work on the saddle. The Krefelder stamp with the two horses is also not recognized by any of the old timers here. Our best guess is that this saddle is well over thirty years old(seems in great shape), and was most likely a custom made saddle. The model it resembles the most is an old Tristan. There are some differences though. The Tristan was one of Stubbens biggest sellers years ago and is still popular today. That saddle was most likely originally sold somewhere in Europe and made its way over here. Sorry we can’t help you more, but it stumped everybody here."


                          • #14
                            One of my Stubbens has the same nail head. It appears as if it once had a cap of some kind on it that has since been lost.


                            • #15
                              agreed- I don't think it's as old as some do. I had one of these for a while. Bought it used from the first owner who bought it in the early 90s. I had the little enameled button cover come off on one side and it looked like that.


                              • #16
                                I've never been able to ride on a Stubben. Hell on earth for me. But to each his own!


                                • #17
                                  If the saddle has a serial number stamped onto the flap that covers the billets you can get info from Stuebben in Germany - it is spelled Stubben in North America. I have had 2 older German Stuebbens and got their production specs quickly via e-mail from them. Hope that helps! If anyone is interested in an 18" 31.5 tree Romanus Extra (Schultheis) let me know!


                                  • #18
                                    It is nice that it has less knee rolls, and the saddle will tend to fit more horses because of how it is built. As long as you can post comfortably in it, (which does cause it not to fit some of us... :-) ), get it. I have two old passiers on from 62 and one from 84...the one from 62 was reflocked once because it had flattend...otherwise they go on forever.
                                    I.D.E.A. yoda