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Warmbloods - is there an official definition?

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  • Warmbloods - is there an official definition?

    Totally confused here. I've read through the threads I could find here regarding warmbloods. I've found the American Warmblood Registry, which states that eligible horses are sport horses born in North America who have documentation of pedigree (Jockey-club thoroughbred) or crossbred horses that can document parentage but do not have draft blood.

    Then I find the American Warmblood Society, which states, "To be eligible for registration a horse/pony can be of any breed stock or combination thereof, except 100% hot- blood (Thoroughbred or Arabian) or 100% cold-blood (draft breeds)." This seems to be contradictory to the Warmblood Registry. He has met the requirements for performance based on his scores in the jumping ring, so I just have to have his DNA tested.

    SO...is a warmblood a draft cross? Is a draft cross a warmblood? Is there no "official" definition? Is a warmblood simply a sport horse?

    I came across a COTH thread in which someone remarked that if a horse is registered as an American Warmblood people might assume it's a nag. Is there a negative association with American Warmbloods? Is there any benefit to registering him other than for fun?

    Before I bought him, he was a "Dutch Warmblood." Then a few days before I bought him he mysteriously changed to a "Canadian Warmblood." He has no papers that I know of, and is registered in USEF as a "draft cross." He is a gelding, so I'm not looking for breeding. I'm ambitiously thinking about year-end awards just for fun.

    Is there any other way to find out about a horse? I'd love to know where he is from, etc. The prior owners may or may not talk - horse was sold through two trainers (neither of which represented me), and the purchase was a bit of a s___ show. He has a documented USEF record in a different discipline. I have no intention of ever selling him. Regardless, he is an adorable mutt.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by right horse at the right time; Jan. 2, 2013, 07:33 PM. Reason: grammar
    LarkspurCO: no horse's training is complete until it can calmly yet expressively perform GP in stadium filled w/chainsaw juggling zombies riding unicycles while flying monkeys w/bottle rockets...

  • #2
    The American Warmblood registry and society aren't necessarily awful, just simply considered the "mutt" registries. Because pretty much anyone can get into them they're not really something people are proud of showing off for the breeding. If you would like to do end of the year awards, they are a relatively non competitive registry which makes it relatively easy to get some prizes. You can find the results from this year at the USDF website (http://www.usdf.org/awards/final/all...rend/index.asp). From the sounds of it you would be more inclined to register with the AWS (american warmblood society). A lot of it is up to you though. If you are looking to just have some fun and be recognized in some national awards then I would say go ahead and do some research to try and register your guy. I registered my guys with the AWS to get some end of the year awards and haven't really regretted it.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Thanks! This is exactly the reason I'm interested - just to have fun. I had to decide ASAP whether to join USDF or just my GMO, so that's how it came up. Thanks for the advice! Good luck this year .
      LarkspurCO: no horse's training is complete until it can calmly yet expressively perform GP in stadium filled w/chainsaw juggling zombies riding unicycles while flying monkeys w/bottle rockets...

      Comment


      • #4
        HAH!! A 'warmblood' is any horse who's price can be doubled by virtue of that designation!!

        Technically, they are ANY kind of draft X hotter blooded horse. In reality, the Europeans have been refining that X for a long time now, and their horses are often super spiffy!! In North America, however.... you are left with the slow/heavy X fast/hot = God only knows what. Could be cool. Could be crap.

        OP, You have now learned that a seller that tells you 'warmblood' may very well be full of it. Lacking documentation, the 'warmblood' story of a horse's parentage does NOT make it worth the 2x price increase that a European horse with verified lineage will bring.
        "Friend" me !

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        • #5
          A Canadian Warmblood is a breed recognized under the Animal Pedigree Act in Canada. The background of a Canadian Warmblood can be from different registries - mine are a mix of Dutch Warmblood/Holsteiner/Oldenburg etc. There is 1/4 TB lurking in one of them.

          Here is the link to the Canadian Warmblood registry if you would like to know more about the purpose/history:
          http://www.canadianwarmbloods.com/history.php

          If you know your geldings real name (maybe someone mentioned it?) you can search here to see if you can find him, just scroll down a little to search the animal by name:
          http://www.clrc.ca/cgi-bin/query.cgi?_association=27

          Other than that the only difference between Canadian Warmbloods and other 'sport horse' registries (in my very un-expert opinion) is that some other registries are more lax about knowing the background of your horse (i.e. if it looks nice but you don't know the parentage you can be accepted as a sport horse). The more stringent registries do not allow that. Oh, I found a decent explanation of the difference between a registry and a studbook here:
          http://www.canadianwarmbloods.com/reg-vs-studbook.php

          Just because a horse is a XYZ warmblood doesn't mean it is special - it means that the parentage of the horse is known. You can then take that and learn from it to see if it more likely or not to have the traits you need to do a good job at whatever it is you want to do. i.e. a dressage bred superstar is probably not going to make an amazing western pleasure horse... but if you are looking for a dressage horse and the youngster in front of you has parents that have been able to do that or consistently produced offspring that could do that, you are essentially stacking the deck in your favor that with proper training etc you can move down that road.

          Edited to ad: By law the seller is required to transfer the ownership to you for a Canadian Warmblood when they are purchased. That is what happened with mine...

          Comment


          • #6
            First of all "warmblood" and "Warmblood" are two different designations. Lower case "warmblood" simply means something that is not a hotblood (Tbred or Arabian) or coldblood (draft). Upper case Warmblood has come to mean a purpose bred horse that is included in one of the Warmblood registries. Depending on your own personal opinion, that might mean only a European Warmblood Registry (aka Hanoverian, KWPN, Holsteiner, GOV, RPSI, Trakehner, etc), or it might include the North American Warmblood Registries - AWS, AWR, CWB, Old NA. There are a few less well known registries, especially in Eastern Europe - a trainer I know has a "Russian Warmblood" of unknown lineage and a friend has a Croation Warmblood which is at least part Lippizan!

            The European registries have a longer history of refining their cross breeding process, so we see the modern Warmblood - but if you go back 80 or 100 years to look the prior generations of their purpose bred horses, they look like Drafts (agricultural horses) and hotbloods - hence the original designation, Warmblood. So European registries are carefully bred, multi-generation "mutts" refining through those generations for sport; while the North American registries are still a few generations behind in some of their cross breeding, although they are borrowing from Euro bloodlines to "kick start" their programs.

            However - if you really look at the registries, the North American registries are modeled very much after the Euro model. They have inspections for quality control, they have varying studbooks to indicate whether bloodlines follow the ideal Euro model or something different, and they award horses based on their potential for SPORT - dressage and jumping.

            So, the answer is complex, and depends on who you talk to. I do register with AWS - they have some high quality horses in the registry, and of course, some that are not as nice - but you can say that about ANY registry. I wouldn't assume a horse is a "dog" based on its registration - always look at the individual horse, not the registry.

            Comment


            • #7
              What Mystic Oak said
              If you look in a dictionary many words have more than one meaning. So it is with "warmblood"
              Just PLEASE don't call my Irish Draught Sport Horses "warmbloods"
              I wasn't always a Smurf
              Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
              "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
              The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

              Comment


              • #8
                I never really understood how Warmbloods were not purebred "breeds" like Arabians or Morgans until I read this book.

                http://www.amazon.com/International-...rmblood+horses

                Briefly, registered Warmbloods are the offspring of registry approved stallions and mares that have been accepted by the official registries. In some cases, inspection is required for acceptance in the registry.

                In very old times in Europe, a warmblood horse was registered in accordance with where it was foaled (i.e., Hanover or Rheinland) but that was long ago and now each registery has standards to which it adheres.
                "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by carolprudm View Post
                  Just PLEASE don't call my Irish Draught Sport Horses "warmbloods"
                  Why not? That's what I would consider IDSHs and IDs to be. Irish Draughts are the heaviest light horse breed-- so technically a warmblood by at least one definition-- and I definitely wouldn't consider IDSHs to be a hot-blooded horse.

                  Personally, I would be positively THRILLED if people would consider my Irish Draught to be a warmblood instead of a draft horse, He is a seriously competitive sport horse in both jumping and dressage and I always get remarks like "I didn't know draft horses could do that" or "surely he's a cross and not pure draft horse" or "I've never seen a draft that color". Honestly, when people completely unfamiliar with IDs ask his breed, most of the time I just reply with "Irish horse" or "Irish warmblood." I know it's not technically correct, but then they don't automatically have the mindset that he's a draft horse and I don't have to give lengthy explanations on why he's not one.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I still don't understand what you are supposed to answer when someone asks you what breed your horse is if it is a WB.

                    ex: sire was Dutch WB, dam is Oldenburg. Horse registered with XYZ. So does the horse even have a breed? I say unless it has 1/2 or 1/4 arab or TB, Trak, there is no "breed". what I think is best response: "He is registered with XYZ." I want to sound like I know what is going on. Pls tell me.

                    I said that Oldenburg was a certain horse's registry, not a breed, to someone the other day & got a huff.

                    OK, I keep adding to this post:

                    when someone asks me what my mare's breed is, I say she is a Friesian cross. I don't say she is a Friesian Baroque Blood Sport Black Heritage Horse. Even if she was registered with a more respectable registry than she is, I would still say she was a Friesian cross in terms of "breed". I might say she was "registered with FSH", or whatever.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Hippolyta View Post

                      ex: sire was Dutch WB, dam is Oldenburg. Horse registered with XYZ. So does the horse even have a breed?
                      Horse is whatever XYZ is.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Heinz 57 View Post
                        Horse is whatever XYZ is.
                        but it's not a "breed" it is a registry. He has no breed?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Horse is not a purebred. Just like all WBs except Trakheners.
                          "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            If a horse is registered as an Oldenburg, I'd call it an Oldenburg, even if it's a blend of Hanoverian, TB, whatever. I don't think of Sandro Hit as an Oldenburg/ Holsteiner/ Thoroughbred/ Westfalien/ Hanoverian "cross".

                            There is alot of thought and reasoning behind the guidelines of every reputable registry, and I can respect and appreciate that. Therefore if a horse has met the requirements for registration with "Registry LMNO", I'd call it a "LMNO".

                            I breed Friesian Sporthorses -- I register them as Friesian Sporthorses (FSA) and I call them Friesian Sporthorses (FSAs), I don't call them "Friesian/ Dutch/ Hanoverian/ Thoroughbreds" and so forth. When I see a horse advertised as a "Main Book Friesian Sporthorse" I can have a certain confidence in the quality and sport suitability of the pedigree which I wouldn't have with "Friesian Cross", just like I'd have more confidence in an "Main Book Hanoverian mare" versus a "warmblood mare", or a "Rolls Royce" versus a "car"......

                            "Warmblood" doesn't tell me much, and "warmblood" or "American Warmblood" doesn't tell me anything. I'd rather see a breed or registry affiliation.

                            I came across a COTH thread in which someone remarked that if a horse is registered as an American Warmblood people might assume it's a nag. Is there a negative association with American Warmbloods?
                            In my experience, yes. But if you're just registering for fun and for awards etc., AWS is an affordable all-inclusive registry with a nice awards program. Or if you wanted to avoid the stigma of "American Warmblood" you could try the Performance Horse Registry, which also has a nice awards program (www.phr.com.)
                            River Oaks Farm - home of the Elite Book Friesian Sporthorse Grand Prix dressage stallion Lexington - sire of four consecutive FSA National Inspection Champions. Endorsing the FSA.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Artemis Agrotera View Post
                              Why not? That's what I would consider IDSHs and IDs to be. Irish Draughts are the heaviest light horse breed-- so technically a warmblood by at least one definition-- and I definitely wouldn't consider IDSHs to be a hot-blooded horse.

                              Personally, I would be positively THRILLED if people would consider my Irish Draught to be a warmblood instead of a draft horse, He is a seriously competitive sport horse in both jumping and dressage and I always get remarks like "I didn't know draft horses could do that" or "surely he's a cross and not pure draft horse" or "I've never seen a draft that color". Honestly, when people completely unfamiliar with IDs ask his breed, most of the time I just reply with "Irish horse" or "Irish warmblood." I know it's not technically correct, but then they don't automatically have the mindset that he's a draft horse and I don't have to give lengthy explanations on why he's not one.
                              You may call your Irish Draught whatever you wish but please don't call my RIDSH a warmblood.

                              Irish Draught horses AREN'T draft horses like Clydes or Friesians they were the traditional all purpose family horse.
                              Many people who love the traditional Irish Draught regret the introduction of continental warmbloods into Irish breeding with the resulting loss of identity.

                              Yes, I know Sophie is reputed to be 1/4 Trak but most of the Trak breeders I have spoken to, including her supposed grandsire's owners, have recoiled in horror at the very thought that Trak semen was used on a lowly Irish horse so it does go both ways. One of them was extremely rude
                              Last edited by carolprudm; Jan. 4, 2013, 01:17 PM.
                              I wasn't always a Smurf
                              Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
                              "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
                              The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Eclectic Horseman View Post
                                Horse is not a purebred. Just like all WBs except Trakheners.
                                Thanks. I was going to chip in that basically, there are only two kinds of "warmblood:" Trakheners (a breed) and everything else (types).

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by carolprudm View Post
                                  Irish Draught horses AREN'T draft horses like Clydes or Friesians they were the traditional all purpose family horse.
                                  And please don't call the Friesian a draft either. Draft horses were bred for agricultural work purposes - feathers don't make it a draft. The Friesian was originally bred as a war riding horse, then as a driving type (which is also the purpose of Warmbloods until very recently), not as an agriculture work horse. They are now being bred back toward a riding type. They are not a draft, and none of the Friesian registries consider them a draft breed.

                                  And while I don't consider most Warmbloods a "breed", I do think you answer according to the registry they are in, whether that is Oldenburg, Canadian WB, American WB, Hanoverian, etc.

                                  BTW, even the "purebred" Trakehner allows some other breeds - Arabian and Tbred. The WB registries are not closed breed registries, so you can't compare them to a breed registry, which requires a purebred horse bred to a purebred horse.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by MysticOakRanch View Post
                                    And please don't call the Friesian a draft either. Draft horses were bred for agricultural work purposes - feathers don't make it a draft. The Friesian was originally bred as a war riding horse, then as a driving type (which is also the purpose of Warmbloods until very recently), not as an agriculture work horse.<SNIP>
                                    Thank you for that information. I was under the impression that Friesians were carriage horses primarily.

                                    ETA: I don't think all drafts were agricultural. Some drew city carriages and delivery wagons.
                                    Last edited by carolprudm; Jan. 4, 2013, 12:31 PM.
                                    I wasn't always a Smurf
                                    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
                                    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
                                    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Hippolyta View Post
                                      I still don't understand what you are supposed to answer when someone asks you what breed your horse is if it is a WB.

                                      ex: sire was Dutch WB, dam is Oldenburg. Horse registered with XYZ. So does the horse even have a breed? I say unless it has 1/2 or 1/4 arab or TB, Trak, there is no "breed". what I think is best response: "He is registered with XYZ." I want to sound like I know what is going on. Pls tell me.

                                      I said that Oldenburg was a certain horse's registry, not a breed, to someone the other day & got a huff.

                                      OK, I keep adding to this post:

                                      when someone asks me what my mare's breed is, I say she is a Friesian cross. I don't say she is a Friesian Baroque Blood Sport Black Heritage Horse. Even if she was registered with a more respectable registry than she is, I would still say she was a Friesian cross in terms of "breed". I might say she was "registered with FSH", or whatever.
                                      Would you rather be right, or happy? Most warmbloods are NOT breeds, correct. But especially in dressage where warmbloods are the most common types of horses - saying the registry in which the horse has papers is the answer someone is looking for, not a lesson on the difference. You can always add in more info on the breeding, though. "He's an Oldenburg but his sire was Dutch" or whatever to give info on where the lines which worked for that horse are.

                                      I call our registered Friesian Sporthorse (with the possibly defunct registry which doesn't use inspections - I don't remember the different registries at the moment) a Friesian cross, because while her dam is claimed to be Andalusian and she definitely has some Spanish attributes, we have no info on the dam and she could very well have been a Spanish mustang or something else to show those influences. I also have a Trakehner filly and a TB gelding, so they are easy, then a rescue mare I suspect is ranch bred QH, but I don't know for sure.
                                      Originally posted by Silverbridge
                                      If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by MysticOakRanch View Post
                                        BTW, even the "purebred" Trakehner allows some other breeds - Arabian and Tbred. The WB registries are not closed breed registries, so you can't compare them to a breed registry, which requires a purebred horse bred to a purebred horse.
                                        Yes, but they are very specific about how and who. The Anglo-Trakeners (TB) are so-listed, and while you can breed any Arabian mare to a Trak stallion and register the offspring, you can only breed a Trakhener mare to an APPROVED Arabian stallion, of which there were only 3 in the U.S. With the death of Aul Magic a year or so ago, only two approved Arab stallions, though more may have been approved and I just don't know about it.

                                        Technically, Appaloosas (real ones, not Quarterloosas) are classified as "warmblood" (just not European WB). I always used to joke that if I were to breed an Appy mare to a WB, I would prefer it to be a Trakhener. Well, the jokes on me, I guess. I now have an Araloosa, and since his sire was Trakhener approved, I sort of have a "pseudo" Trakaloosa.

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