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Warmbloods - is there an official definition?

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  • #21
    I only know european warmbloods. The american ones depend on who is doing the talking (and breeding). A good way to learn about the europeans is to buy some warmblood books, published in UK and in europe. In europe, warmbloods are in registries. Probably only "wb breed" in europe is the Trakehner, and that registry is full of arab and tb blood. (altho this is not a hard and fast rule.)

    My Hessen (the registry merged with the hannoverians in 2010) has a paternal DWB grandsire, and a maternal "french anglo-arabian tb" great-grandsire, who was graded into the oldenburg registry when the burgermeister of Oldenburg Gr. bought him and took him home to be graded into the Oldenburg registry.

    The europeans do it right. They breed for performance, the best to the best. And they import american TBs to refine their stock. Including an ancestor of my horse, a Ky TB stud named War Relic.

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    • #22
      Ow. My brain hurts!

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      • #23
        In Europe, they also often say "put the blood on top," and to my understanding, tend more to breed a WB mare to a TB stallion, rather than the other way around as we mostly do it over here.

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        • #24
          The Friesian was originally bred as a war riding horse, then as a driving type (which is also the purpose of Warmbloods until very recently),
          By this definition, then percherons would not be considered draft either since they were originally bred to be war horses and then over time were used to pull stage coaches.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by MLD View Post
            By this definition, then percherons would not be considered draft either since they were originally bred to be war horses and then over time were used to pull stage coaches.
            But Percherons are still used as work horses - pulling a carriage does not make a horse a draft - most carriage horses are bred with fancy front ends - Friesians, Morgans, Dutch Harness Horses, Hackneys, etc. Percherons were developed as a work horse primarily. There is a difference between a light harness breed and a work breed. And in the 1700s and 1800s, ALL horses were used as "work" horses except with the ultra wealthy, who could afford the luxury of carriage horses.

            Most Warmbloods were originally harness breeds too. The Friesian registries don't consider their horses to be draft horses - they should be the experts on the breed!
            Last edited by MysticOakRanch; Jan. 4, 2013, 08:49 PM.

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            • #26
              I believe I read once that the ONLY heavy draft breed that was NOT used for war, but strictly developed as a farm/work animal, is the Suffolk Punch. So that would mean Clydes, Percherons, Shires, et al. are NOT draft horses. ROFLOL!!!

              The heavy draft component is, to my understanding, pretty far back. The modern (last 200-300 years) were developed from coach horse/hot blood crosses, so the true full draft is far far back and the carriage horse types fully developed as "breeds" or "types" of their own, not crosses. Another reason I get annoyed when looking for sale horses and find first generation draft crosses categorized as "Warmbloods."

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              • #27
                Plus it drove up the cost of the darned crosses, which are what I prefer! :-D

                Blood on top isn't done over here? We always made sure whichever animal was the papa was the smaller of the two (in other animals, as well). All kinds of problems can result in the offspring being too large...heck, my mom is 5'4" and my Dad is 6'4" and some of my joint abnormalities have been blamed on being carried by someone "too small".

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post
                  Plus it drove up the cost of the darned crosses, which are what I prefer! :-D

                  Blood on top isn't done over here? We always made sure whichever animal was the papa was the smaller of the two (in other animals, as well). All kinds of problems can result in the offspring being too large...heck, my mom is 5'4" and my Dad is 6'4" and some of my joint abnormalities have been blamed on being carried by someone "too small".
                  Just saying it's more frequently done/has been done in Europe. Most people here tend to breed their TB mare to a fancy WB stallion, rather than the other way around.

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by MysticOakRanch View Post
                    But Percherons are still used as work horses - pulling a carriage does not make a horse a draft - most carriage horses are bred with fancy front ends - Friesians, Morgans, Dutch Harness Horses, Hackneys, etc. Percherons were developed as a work horse primarily. There is a difference between a light harness breed and a work breed.

                    Most Warmbloods were originally harness breeds too.

                    The Friesian registries don't consider their horses to be draft horses - they should be the experts on the breed!

                    I don't personally care what friesian owners want to consider their horses. I was simply pointing out that a bred of horse is not excluded from being a draft breed because they were started out as being breed to be war horses. The original percherons (heavy saddle horses) were originally bred to be war horses as well. Percherons then went on to become the stage coach horses or diligence horses (heavier horses, lighter draft) before they were bred as the heavier draft work horses.

                    FWIW, in the 18th and 19th centuries, friesians were used in agriculture.

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Eclectic Horseman View Post
                      Horse is not a purebred. Just like all WBs except Trakheners.
                      This made me laugh. Do you know how much TB and Arab is in Trakehners??? And they will still approve crossing out to improve the bloodlines. To me, that makes them a quasi registry, just like other breeds in the US. The difference is minimal. A bit restrictive, but still open to other breeds of approved stallions.

                      http://encycl.opentopia.com/term/Trakehner
                      "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

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                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Velvet View Post
                        This made me laugh. Do you know how much TB and Arab is in Trakehners??? And they will still approve crossing out to improve the bloodlines.
                        Glad that you enjoyed it. Nevertheless, it is still considered a breed by the breed association (and others) and not a registry.

                        Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that European WBs are all ONE breed with various territorial registries that allow occasional out crossings to TBs?
                        "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

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                        • #32
                          I don't think Warmbloods are a BREED - the registries are performance studbooks which are different then breed registries. Each performance studbook has its own rules and bloodline requirements, but is not a purebred horse. So when we think of Warmbloods, we don't think of breeds, but we do think of registries. So it is appropriate to say a horse is an Oldenburg if it it registered with Oldenburg (whether that is GOV or Old/NA). That doesn't mean it is a purebred horse, but it has met the requirements (including bloodlines) of the Oldenburg registry.

                          And personally, I think it is appropriate to use the term Warmblood (generically) if the horse is registered with a Warmblood registry, but that is a sticking point with some people who feel it should be a Euro WB registry. But then we have the Old/NA people who will say their registry is modeled after a Euro registry - and yet, reality, all the WB registries are modeled after the Euro registries, with optional inspections, performance criteria, varying studbook levels, etc.

                          So - best bet, just label your horse according to his registry

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                          • #33
                            We used to say, the difference between a "warmblood" and a "half-bred," "heavy hunter" or "chunk" is about twenty thousand dollars . . .

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                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
                              We used to say, the difference between a "warmblood" and a "half-bred," "heavy hunter" or "chunk" is about twenty thousand dollars . . .
                              I guess you haven't been around any good ones then.... the quality varies widely.

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                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
                                We used to say, the difference between a "warmblood" and a "half-bred," "heavy hunter" or "chunk" is about twenty thousand dollars . . .
                                Many years ago, we had Meisterwind on "stallion row" at a Horse Fair in the "wild wild west". A rather rude old fart looked him over and informed us he was breeding them warmbloods too. He had a Percheron stud running with his herd of AQHA mares because he wanted to get in on making some of those big dollars that people were paying for them, there warmbloods. I explained that Meisterwind had no draft blood and neither did our broodmares. He didn't "get" it and informed me that his program was going to produce horses that looked just like "that stud of yours". OK I told him if he produced a horse that looked just like Meisterwind, I would pay him good money for it. I think that was 15 years or so ago and he never did bring me that look alike horse I did hear through the grapevine, though, that he was producing some good bucking stock.
                                Patty
                                www.rivervalefarm.com
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                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by MysticOakRanch View Post
                                  First of all "warmblood" and "Warmblood" are two different designations. Lower case "warmblood" simply means something that is not a hotblood (Tbred or Arabian) or coldblood (draft). Upper case Warmblood has come to mean a purpose bred horse that is included in one of the Warmblood registries. Depending on your own personal opinion, that might mean only a European Warmblood Registry (aka Hanoverian, KWPN, Holsteiner, GOV, RPSI, Trakehner, etc), or it might include the North American Warmblood Registries - AWS, AWR, CWB, Old NA. There are a few less well known registries, especially in Eastern Europe - a trainer I know has a "Russian Warmblood" of unknown lineage and a friend has a Croation Warmblood which is at least part Lippizan!
                                  So would a Saddlebred be classed as a Warmblood? There's a bit of Arab there, but not completely so. Reason I ask, is there is a nice Holsteiner stallion near me I had been considering for my Saddlebred mare (at some point), but when I looked at the Holsteiner site, it seemed like they would not accept her foal from him as a part-bred.

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                                  • #37
                                    These types of threads make my brain ache. Why are people in such a rush to slap the label "warmblood" on everything to make it sound better. A Quarter Horse is a Quarter Horse. A Paint/draft cross is a Paint/draft cross. Is a Saddlebred a Warmblood? There's nothing to be ashamed of about Saddlebreds, why not just call her a Saddlebred? (Saddlebred is not considered a Warmblood.) And no, a Friesian is not a draft horse. And most "American Warmbloods" aren't Warmbloods.

                                    *head desk*
                                    "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns

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                                    • #38
                                      Yeah, the whole "warmblood" thing does get a bit silly, sometimes. I mean, truly, my horse's sire is a purebred Arabian (hot blood), his dam 3/4 Foundation-bred Appy (classed as a warmblood, tho not "European warmblood") and 1/4 TB (hot blood). So.... is he a "small w" warmblood? (and who cares?*G*)

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                                      • #39
                                        That's why I was saying that genetically, although there are different registries, European warmbloods are actually close to being a breed. Most of the breeding stock approved for one European WB registry is approved or could be approved as breeding stock by another European WB registry. There is much interbreeding between the various registries.
                                        "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

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                                        • #40
                                          The Supreme Court has decided that a tomato is a vegetable. That doesn't mean a tomato is a vegetable. If the USEF decided that "warmblood' meant a european bred horse it still doesn't mean that is the only permitted use of the word unless someone was able to trademark it. Martha Stewart had a lot o trouble with Katonah.
                                          I wasn't always a Smurf
                                          Penmerryl Sophie RIDSH
                                          "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
                                          The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

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