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when you get your test back

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  • #21
    I haven't had a problem. The only thing that gets confusing is "needs to be rounder," because you're never sure what the lack of roundness refers to (horse, circle, etc.) I've scribed a couple times and honestly I'm amazed that the judges are able to say/do as much as they do given the short time for some of the movements.

    Comment


    • #22
      I'm very impressed ... as a scribe I sometimes can't figure out what a comment means in relation to the ride when I'm done with a test. I always hope that the collectives clarify the ride's strengths and weaknesses.

      One of my favorite judges has her scribes circle and underline the directives to help clarify where her concerns are.
      *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=

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      • #23
        No, at Intro and Training level I get comments of "horse above bit" "horse not steady in the bridle" "horse fussy" also the dreaded "needs to be rounder" and I get the exact same score if I blow the lead, bolt half way across the arena, then pop straight up in the air then if I am just cantering not on the bit.
        http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

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        • #24
          Originally posted by Bethe Mounce View Post
          do you understand why you got the score you did? are the comments and collectives clear? is the handwriting legible? is the scribe's short hand easy to read? i remain convinced after years of scribing, sometimes the judges don't explain well enough. and alot of riders don't know the dressage lingo.....
          I've scribed a bunch and shown a bunch. I've never had a hard time conveying the judge's thoughts (I minimize shorthand - I feel it's my job to be clear, not watch the ride) or understanding their thoughts. I usually have my ride videotaped and my favorite thing to do is to watch the tape while having the test in hand. Too often that I think "what do you mean, judge, that that wasn't forward enough - it felt forward!" and then I watch the tape and I say "oh, that didn't look forward at all". I've yet to scribe for a judge who didn't use clear language. That said, it's in the rules that any competitor can ask the TD for an appointment to talk to the judge about anything unclear on the test sheet. Often, the show management will contact the scribe, if they are around, to clear up a penmanship issue. The show management usually knows the scribes and this isn't too big of a deal.
          Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

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          • #25
            Gotta say that I have found my tests illegible so rarely that I cant recall any real incident. And 95% of the time, my test reads just like it felt to ride...

            The other 4% of the time, watching the video clears up all of my questions.

            The other 1%, i ask the trainer and/or judge.

            Given the sheer number of tests i've ridden to date, I'd say that the scribes and judges do a pretty good job.

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            • #26
              I usually do. I always record my test so I and the trainer sometimes go back and watch it with my test in hand. The test I feel I did bad on usually are the higher scoring test lol. So it's nice to go back and see oh it wasnt so bad. There have been a couple times I didn't understand a comment but usually I get it ESP when I go back and watch.
              Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

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              • #27
                Most of the time, after I manage to decipher the short hands, they make sense. The confusing part is when I'm not sure whether a comment is meant to be a pat on the back or a advice for needy improvement. For example, "energy:" does that mean my horse needs to have better energy, or he had great energy, or "submission:" does that mean we need to work on submission, or my horse demonstrate great submission already?, and so on and so forth.

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                • #28
                  I mostly scribe. And I try to write very legibly but after 2 days and going on the 3-4th days, it can get a little sloppy. And I have had friends come ask me what "that word" is or what is it shorthand for. Some judges prefer the scribe to write "this" and in a particular order.

                  But when I do show, I get my rides videotaped so I can watch the ride a few times before I watch it with my test in hand. that's how I critique my tests.


                  It also helps that I have been doing dressage for a long time. I remember tests that had qualities of the movement in the directives, the qualities used to be in the 2007 Tests and prior, then they were taken out in the 2011 tests.

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                  • Original Poster

                    #29
                    Originally posted by Lucassb View Post
                    Well, as an example, I am new to dressage even though I have been riding and showing for several decades now. I can READ the comments on my test and I have a good general idea of "the message" ... but I do like hearing my trainer's impressions as well, and find them very helpful, particularly when it comes to addressing whatever deficiencies might have been noted. I consider myself a very capable, independent rider but having the opportunity to discuss my scores with someone who has educated eyes on the ground (and who therefore sees my ride very much as the judge did) can be very useful.

                    I will never understand why people struggle with the concept of "needing" a trainer or feel the need to denigrate riders who get competent assistance on this or any other aspect of competition; even the most accomplished international riders have trusted trainers assistin
                    g them when they show.

                    i did not mean to imply that having your trainer at a show is a bad thing. what i mean is that rider at home should be very well prepared prior to showing and trainer is merely the eyes on the ground, not there to interpret the test. we all need competent eyes in the groud, at home and at shows. i have found that riders don't understand dressage vocabulary thoroughly enough because the comments aren't sufficient. i scribe, i can write fast and accurately to ensure the rider understands why they got a 6 as opposed to a 7. rider has to know what they could have done better to earn that 1/2 point or full point. judges cannot give a riding lesson, however they are the test to see if you have done your homework, most teachers give helpful hints for improvement. if judge isn't willing to give a few hints, then we will continue to see forced frames, flopping reins, no acceptance of the bit. if judges will be candid, then trainers will also start to understand why their clients are getting low scores. the dressage tests with their scores should be easily understood by rider because rider's trainer has done their job properly at home.







                    done your homework so in a sense they are a teacher. the problem is not all judges want the same thing at intr
                    Bethe Mounce
                    Head Trainer, AmeriCan Romance Equestrian
                    https://www.facebook.com/AmericanRomanceEquestrian
                    Brentwood CA

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                    • #30
                      I think most of the comments I've received have been pretty clear and accurate. The only time a comment really irked me was when I had one that said "Could have been better." Yeah, no shit. I sort of gathered that by the whole number-less-than-ten thing Sure it was absolutely true, but helpful... not so much.
                      "In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn’t merely train him to be semi-human. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming part dog."
                      -Edward Hoagland

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                      • #31
                        generally, yes, I understand the comments

                        I think the judges and scribes do a good job and try to be descriptive within the time constraints.

                        Sometimes the scores are different than expected, e.g. two rides, one felt better, trainer said looked better, video looked better, scores virtually the same. But the comments were clear on what could be improved. sigh.
                        Forward...go forward

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by ToN Farm View Post
                          Generally I do not have a problem reading the comments or understanding the marks and final score.

                          I do have a problem with the new 3-part breakdown of the Rider Score. I think that if the score for Rider Alignment & Seat is 6 or less, then the judge should note what it is that needs improvement.
                          I, too, would like to see more explanation in the collectives, specifically in rider score. These are the areas that make the biggest difference to the pair going forward, so it is important to riders to get this feedback. Honestly, I would like there to always be a comment under the rider score, as it has been determined it is the most important with its high coefficient. I consistently find that I get no feedback on my position other than the score, while I usually get a comment on my horses' gaits. Since the gait score is less important than the rider scores, it seems more attention should be paid to this area. Perhaps this will change with the introduction of the rider tests, as this will become a more specific area of focus for judges.

                          I think some of reading tests has to come from exp as sme scrbs use lts of abr. I love watching people try to figure out what certain abreviations mean!

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                          • #33
                            Originally posted by enjoytheride View Post
                            No, at Intro and Training level I get comments of "horse above bit" "horse not steady in the bridle" "horse fussy" also the dreaded "needs to be rounder" and I get the exact same score if I blow the lead, bolt half way across the arena, then pop straight up in the air then if I am just cantering not on the bit.
                            If that is the case, you should fill out the judge eval at the show. It cannot be anon - you must Identify yourself and sign it. TL and Intro do not require on the bit, etc.....

                            L

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                            • #34
                              I scribe some, so I usually do not have any problem understanding the comments - and remembering the ride usually helps me clear up any confusion! It helps to read the USDF's Guide for Scribes - it has a list of abbreviations often used :http://www.usdf.org/docs/ShowFlash/w...forScribes.pdf Although there are some judges out there who have unique vocabulary..... and some who just have TOO many comments to fit in the box, no matter how small I write!

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #35
                                yes, some judges will write novels. :-) and yes my hand will get tired, but i know the $$$$ spent to participate at show and riders deserve legible, clear and comprehensive comments, both during the test movements and the collectives. to keep show on time, collectives get short changed at times. i truly think every rider needs to know how to achieve higher scores movement by movement.....such as: "horse needs to be rounder to obtain higher score," or "circle must be accurate size for more points," or "horse must be on the bit at this level," or "horse must demonstrate correct connection to be successful at this level--he was never on the bit thru out test." judges must say it how it is and no sugar coating. of course, be polite but judges have an obligation to the future of this sport. riders have to know what acceptance of the bit is, what being on the bit means and feels like and to know that connection and collection are worlds apart. this dressage thing is expensive, riders must get their money's worth. sometimes i wish judge would speak to rider at the end of test for one moment and tell rider one thing to improve their scores..........:-)
                                Bethe Mounce
                                Head Trainer, AmeriCan Romance Equestrian
                                https://www.facebook.com/AmericanRomanceEquestrian
                                Brentwood CA

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Generally comments fall into the "need more of ... for a higher score" category. My experience has been that compliments are preceded by "good" or "very good" (or v.g., v.good, etc).

                                  As far as submission, you can look at the collectives to get more insight into that terse comment. If your horse scored 7 or more in that block, the comment meant very good!

                                  Originally posted by Wayside View Post
                                  The only time a comment really irked me was when I had one that said "Could have been better."
                                  IMO, this is where you want to pay attention to the judge when you sign up for a show. There are a very few "S" judges who are about that helpful, but for the most part I see that kind of commenting from newer judges who are having a difficult time identifying a single quality ... or when the scribe isn't keeping up (gets that far and then writes the score and moves on). A video will help immensely in this situation as you study and learn (and prepare for the L program yourself!), but also, feel free to ask the TD for a short session with the judge.

                                  Originally posted by beckzert View Post
                                  I consistently find that I get no feedback on my position other than the score, while I usually get a comment on my horses' gaits. Since the gait score is less important than the rider scores,... Perhaps this will change with the introduction of the rider tests, as this will become a more specific area of focus for judges.
                                  You're right about area of focus ... dressage tests are not the same as rider tests. In fact, *gait* is everything in the most fundamental sense of dressage. We do movements and exercises to improve the horse's gait, not the other way around (although that's how most of us think of it as we learn.)

                                  I've found that judges typically comment on rider specifics only if they strongly interfere with the horse ... for the most part, I think the only time they really NOTICE rider position is when it is notice-ably troublesome.

                                  Clinics and rider tests will meet your needs better than dressage tests.
                                  *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by AllWeatherGal View Post
                                    er specifics only if they strongly interfere with the horse ... for the most part, I think the only time they really NOTICE rider position is when it is notice-ably troublesome.
                                    That may be true, but if so then it is a huge problem since Rider Position/Seat is now broken out into an indvidual mark. Personally, I do not think they should have split the Rider score into 3 parts. Since they did, then I think the judges ought to provide a reason for less than a 7.

                                    Right now, Janet Foy is giving voice over to riders that submit their Rider Test videos to Horseshow.com. I watched three of the videos. Two I think were second level and one either TL or 1st. One rider got an 8 on position, another a 7.5 and the other a 6.5. The latter one had some notable upper body position faults that most people could identify. I would be willing to bet that the first two riders do not get an and 8/7.5 on Rider when they do their Performance Classes. So in a sense, they may be opening up a can of worms with the Rider Tests. If a rider does the Rider Test and scores high on Position and then does the Performance Test and scores two points lower, that is a problem, no?

                                    Probably this belongs on a different thread but it is a pet peeve of mine right now.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by ToN Farm View Post
                                      That may be true, but if so then it is a huge problem since Rider Position/Seat is now broken out into an indvidual mark. .
                                      THis, along with the new rider tests opens a huge question (aka can o' worms) in my mind - how many judges really pay enough attention to rider seat and position? Most just go along with, what happens in the test is reflected in the rider score, aka if something went wrong (or right) it is the rider's credit.

                                      Very few judges have the rider position/biomechanics training to actually give meaningful feedback to the RIDER. So it is a bit of a pet peeve of mine too - I can probably count on one hand the number of judges (S or higher) that I've seen give meaningful rider feedback on any test sheet. I have seen riders that are crooked, or upper body leaning way back, but the horse goes along and does a decent job, and so the rider gets a decent score. Other riders who are struggling with an obvious difficult situation and doing a good job with it - but since horse didn't go well, rider score suffers. So, I'm also very curious to see how these rider tests go. I would be really selective in who I'd be willing to show under with these tests. Think I'll be volunteering to scribe a lot this year, just to see how these go down

                                      BTW, according to one high level judge, the breaking out of the rider score was to throw a bone at those riding "off breeds". Giving them that 1 point for "harmony".

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        I rode in a couple of show this year that went high-tech, and I loved it! Each scribe/judge pair had a laptop and recorded scores and comments electronically. No more deciphering handwriting from a tired scribe. Plus, assuming a scribe could type worth a darn, it had to be easier on them. You could watch the scoring happen in real time, movement by movement in multiple rings in the show office on flatscreens. Eliminated lost test sheets, and gave competitors (and announcers) virtually immediate unofficial scores. Once scores were official, they were texted to competitors and posted online. Absolutely loved it and you can bet that venue is on my schedule for multiple shows this season!

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Agree with you! Getting feedback to improve the score - while not "instructing" - seems to be a challenge for judges. (and I wan't really complaining abut writing a novel, just that it makes for a messy test sheet!)

                                          Originally posted by Bethe Mounce View Post
                                          yes, some judges will write novels. :-) and yes my hand will get tired, but i know the $$$$ spent to participate at show and riders deserve legible, clear and comprehensive comments, both during the test movements and the collectives. to keep show on time, collectives get short changed at times. i truly think every rider needs to know how to achieve higher scores movement by movement.....such as: "horse needs to be rounder to obtain higher score," or "circle must be accurate size for more points," or "horse must be on the bit at this level," or "horse must demonstrate correct connection to be successful at this level--he was never on the bit thru out test." judges must say it how it is and no sugar coating. of course, be polite but judges have an obligation to the future of this sport. riders have to know what acceptance of the bit is, what being on the bit means and feels like and to know that connection and collection are worlds apart. this dressage thing is expensive, riders must get their money's worth. sometimes i wish judge would speak to rider at the end of test for one moment and tell rider one thing to improve their scores..........:-)

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