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Interesting, USDF on Western Dressage

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  • Originally posted by Sandy M View Post
    I very much agree. Appy lover that I am, I acknowledge my horse is an Arab cross. Still, considering that Arabians were what the Appaloosa registry founders used to "upgrade" a nearly destroyed breed (draft crosses are where the big heads, etc. come from, not Appaloosa bloodlines), I think an Arab cross is closer to being an Appaloosa than the 31/32nds non-colored Quarterloosas the registry now favors. The horse is my profile picture is a 2nd gen TB cross Appy, also 16.2. He was a hunter-type mover, but did okay in dressage through 2nd/3rd level. He'd chase a cow if you asked it, but he'd never be as good as the true western types bred to do it. He was much happier as a H/J and then dressage horse. Appaloosas have BREED characteristics, as you list, but as a recovered breed, you can look among them for breeders that breed the TYPE you want: a dressage type, a jumper type, a western type. But I'm not going to look for a western type to do dressage. LOL

    You don't want to ask him to do this???


    My TWH is not terrifically 'well gaited' - he doesn't have the steepness to his croup, coupled with the angles of his hind leg, and his femur is too short, and his hocks a little too high...to really reach under and go deep. But his regular walk and his canter are lovely. It's all in how they are built.

    But then, we knew that

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
      And for what it's worth, you can cut cows in an english saddle just fine. These days, plenty of folks use saddles that you couldn't possible dally a rope around, because they aren't made to do that. They use the horn to hold onto... And they ride straight legged for no other good reason than that's what they either 1) are used to/skilled at doing (professional) 2) have been told to do (amateur.)
      Newsflash -- you don't rope cows in cutting, so you don't need the kind of horn to dally down. And you push against the horn -- even the most novice cutters know that. If you hang on it, I guarantee you a good cutter will pop you right out of the saddle.

      Is it possible to play around at cutting cattle in a non-western saddle? Sure you can. But I wouldn't recommend doing it on a well trained cutter. You'll end up in the dirt.

      Riding bareback lately has improved my dressage a LOT. Made me stronger. Improved my balance. Etc.
      Ride/learn any way you want. Are you hurt/pissed/whatever that you can't SHOW bareback? If so, I know someone you can team up with to petition USDF about it.
      __________________________
      "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
      the best day in ten years,
      you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by katarine View Post
        You don't want to ask him to do this???
        LOL. Since he was 16.2, I seriously doubt he could get that low without falling over! Ditto for my present Arab cross. The cows would run under him. I've done a little cutting (on real cutting horses), and nary a one was over 15 hands.

        Still, they sometimes can surprise you. My first Appy was REALLY Foundation bred (Toby line), and he was maybe 16 hands on tippy-toe when overdue for shoeing. He was comparatively short-legged for his height, with a heavy body. It was a job to keep him fit to event (preliminary). I was out hacking one day, and we had to pass through a ranch that was located on the fringes of the state park. A guy came running up to me from the ranch house and asked if I would help him round up some cattle that had broken through the fence. My old guy apparently (who knew? He was an intermediate level event horse when I bought him) had some western training, and the guy and I were handily able to round them all up and get them back through the break in the fence. There were a couple of times when he spun around to catch one that wanted to break away, and I was grateful for my AP saddle's kneerolls, since I had no horn to grab!

        P.S.. Isabeau is absolutely right about not grabbing but pushing on the horn while riding a real cutting horse. I took me a while to get the technique with your legs - sort of like speed skating - pushing off with your right leg while the horse goes left. Also was hard to let go of the "heels down" habit. A lot of fun, but I wouldn't want to try it in a flat saddle. Maybe an Aussie stock saddle? But not much else other than a western/cutting saddle.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
          Great example, I have a good friend who is a super tech with an associate's degree. She has trained me on a number of assays. Can you imagine if I'd dismissed her because of her lack of credentials?
          Paula
          Paula, it wasn't so much "lack of credentials" I was getting at. Because there is a lack of "official credentials" and then there is a "lack of understanding". You can be very knowledgeable about something, and lack credentials. Like your friend who had the knowledge base to help you even though she lacked credentials. And then there are those who lack the knowledge base and also lack credentials.

          Again, this isn't meant to belittle you. But you lack both the knowledge base and the credentials. So do a lot of us. I know I do.

          Maybe this is a miscommunication of semantics? With the confusion being that so many of us hear that dressage is good for any horse and rider, of any discipline. And that is true. Any horse will benefit from being supple and responsive, and any rider will be able to benefit from being aware of body position and timing. Any tack. Any horse. Any rider.

          But beyond that "type" of dressage is the Dressage of classical training. Or traditional competition. And I think that what people are getting at is you can call western dressage western dressage if you want. But it is a lower case "d". And classical dressage is Dressage, with an upper case "D".

          One isn't the same as the other. Apples and oranges. They are both a fruit (we are all riding our horses, in an arena, doing specific "things" at specific spots in the arena), but one is an apple (western dressage) and the other is an orange (Dressage).

          I enjoy reading your posts, I really do. I enjoy watching your videos, too. Your enthusiasm can be contagious. Just try not to take the learning process so personally. You don't want to come across as a snotty eighteen year old know-it-all, lecturing the class instructor on a subject that is imperfectly understood. Relax. You don't have to be right all the time.
          Sheilah

          Comment


          • Hurt or pissed I can't compete in dressage bareback? Where did you get that? It would have been nice to be able to compete in the equalizer bareback saddle because then I'd have something to compete in for $250.00.


            ETA: Sheila, I think we're just not meaning the same thing even though we're using the same words. We all have our own processes I guess, and that's okay with me. And thank you for your kind comments about my posts and videos.

            I'm not trying to be a know it all.


            Paula
            He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

            Comment


            • Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
              I'll bet it can. I mean it's a appy -it's got all those features that some said precluded any ability to go "dressage".

              Paula
              What features are you talking about? You seem to be implying that color has everything to do with type here, and that is just silly.

              The horse in the linked video looks like a sport horse, not a stock horse. Forget the color, because color does not equal function.

              One of my favorite Breyer models is of PaynGo.
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE6Eg...ature=youtu.be
              Sheilah

              Comment


              • Originally posted by IdahoRider View Post
                What features are you talking about? You seem to be implying that color has everything to do with type here, and that is just silly.

                The horse in the linked video looks like a sport horse, not a stock horse. Forget the color, because color does not equal function.

                One of my favorite Breyer models is of PaynGo.
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE6Eg...ature=youtu.be
                Sheilah
                I am not trying to say anything. I was echoing something someone had said regarding the inability of certain types of horses to do dressage. So you're wrongly attributing the sentiment to me.

                Paula
                He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
                  And for what it's worth, you can cut cows in an english saddle just fine.
                  For what it is worth, you would land on your ass if you actually tried to cut cows in an English saddle, on a made cutting horse. I have never seen horses move like that before. It seems like their various body parts are moving in different directions.

                  There is no roping or dallying in cutting, so maybe you have it confused with some other discipline?
                  Sheilah

                  Comment


                  • One could probably get a used Wintec Isabelle dressage for little more than $250. One doesn't have to buy a custom dressage saddle nor top of the line Passier, or whatever is the current dressage saddle of choice. I've only purchased one saddle new in all my life - a new Kiefer back when the Wien cost $700. To me, it's stranger to pay $250 for a glorified bareback pad. (Yes, I know it's more than that, but if the effect is the same as riding bareback....).

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
                      I am not trying to say anything. I was echoing something someone had said regarding the inability of certain types of horses to do dressage. So you're wrongly attributing the sentiment to me.

                      Paula
                      No, I am not attributing you wrongly. You said, "It has all those features...". What features were you taking about? Looking at the horse's type, it looks like a sport horse and not a stock horse. I doubt that was the feature you were talking about.

                      So it must have been color? Why would anyone say that a particular color would or would not be able to participate in a particular discipline?

                      People were talking more about type earlier. Not color. A western TYPE horse, moving in a western TYPE way can travel all over a dressage arena and still not be doing Dressage. Color has nothing to do with it. What discipline is my bay gelding "supposed" to be doing? Does it change your mind to learn that he is a registered Arabian? Should he have been forced to stick with endurance, even though he hated it and wasn't very good at it?

                      This conversation has gotten ridiculous. Have at it. Take pictures of your first show experience in the bareback pad. And to the person who said they could cut cows in an English saddle just fine, please have video of THAT little experience ready to share.
                      Sheilah

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sandy M View Post
                        One could probably get a used Wintec Isabelle dressage for little more than $250. One doesn't have to buy a custom dressage saddle nor top of the line Passier, or whatever is the current dressage saddle of choice. I've only purchased one saddle new in all my life - a new Kiefer back when the Wien cost $700. To me, it's stranger to pay $250 for a glorified bareback pad. (Yes, I know it's more than that, but if the effect is the same as riding bareback....).
                        Hi, Sandy,

                        There's a whole back story that made the bareback saddle so exciting. It was treeless, but made rigid enough with panels. It rides like a saddle as opposed to a bareback pad (I have one of those) so I was hoping I could use it in dressage competition. Fella is a tough fit and we haven't had much success with the many saddles we've tried. Everything bridged. My first dressage saddle was a Wintec, but it didn't fit either of us. I have a treeless EZ fit saddle that fits both of us very well, but it isn't dressage-legal.

                        Idahorider, yes, if you read through the thread you'll find that my post was in response to someone else's sentiment about Western horses. So what you're quoting from me was me essentially saying, "but look, here's a horse that is Western that does dressage".

                        Look at it this way; why would I, the person who is loving the idea of WD, then say that Western horses can't do dressage?

                        Paula
                        He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                        Comment


                        • I had a King Ranch horse by King....western enough for ya??? He won everything in hunters and jumpers, and was decent in dressage. Fancy? no. Easy to ride and train? Yes. And the three top western trainers in CA (Jimmy Williams, Mac McQue, and Glenn Gimple could ride their students horses in western, in english, over fences, and do cutting (in ANY saddle).)

                          The fact is that ideally kids grow up with horses, start when they are closest to learning balance themselves, ride bareback easily (all bareback pads do is save your butt from sweat and hair). Does that have to do with 'training'? Only in as much as it allows the rider to be more at home on the horse. But then didnt most grow up doing bareback classes (or $1 classes)? Balance (of the rider) allows the greatest ability to have freedom to TRAIN more effectively. And almost any horse can do (and benefit) from 'training', can do piaffe, can do changes, etc. It's the riders who have the lack of ability. Fancy? Perhaps not. Full strides within their types? Absolutely. That is WHY the (fei) directives were written as they were. And even traditional western trainers adhered to those precepts until recently.
                          I.D.E.A. yoda

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by mp View Post

                            Ride/learn any way you want. Are you hurt/pissed/whatever that you can't SHOW bareback? If so, I know someone you can team up with to petition USDF about it.
                            For some reason there seem to be folks angered that people are going to show 'dressage' in a western saddle. Too bad for the haters. They're here, they steer, and they're going down the center line. Hate them all you want. Just leave them to enjoy their 'western dressage.' I'm sure they'll be happy to leave others to their Intro A-B 'dressage' without insisting that Intro A-B doesn't have the right to exist.
                            "Friend" me !

                            http://www.facebook.com/isabeau.solace

                            Comment


                            • Sheila,

                              I don't have any video of cow cutting in an English saddle, but here is the video that got a few of us interested in bareback dressage.

                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXU3xjVpdI4

                              And for the record, if they'd let me I would do a test in a bareback pad. Why not? Why wouldn't I?

                              Hey check this out. Not cutting in an English saddle, but cutting in no saddle at all.

                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k3jeOwgwy4

                              Here's another bareback cow cutting. I'm not up on the sport but she seems to be doing alot better than the first fellow I found who seems to be riding his horse's face (IMO).

                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2S8hVGP_d4

                              There seem to be quite a few people making trouble with this no-saddle stuff. I found some show jumping without a saddle. I have truly found this fellow inspiring for a long time [fair warning -both horse and rider are bare] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmkSTUDc1Ek

                              I guess the thing that really appeals to me in this kind of situation is that bareback demands a certain connection with your horse that will make me a better rider. I could have easily continued riding made horses and would have been shiny enough for many people, and would have gone on that way without having had that CTJ (comin' to jesus) getting on an unschooled horse.


                              Paula
                              He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                              Comment


                              • I think the trainwreck topic du jour has changed from rollkur to western dressage.
                                "A horse's face always conveys clearly whether it is loved by its owner or simply used." - Anja Beran

                                Comment


                                • In summary:

                                  Some posters don't know what Dressage is, but they want to change it.
                                  Some posters don't know what conformation has to do with ability.
                                  Some posters want to do 'it' their way, although they don't really know what 'it' is, not on any surface but paper or pixel.

                                  Some posters are really, really tired of playing this particular reindeer game, and will now cease attempting to educate those who just will not see.

                                  Y'all have fun.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by meboss84 View Post
                                    http://usdf.org/press/news/view-news.asp?news=643

                                    I don't know much about it, I've never seen it in person. I am interested to see these "study materials" though
                                    I can't blame the USDF for wanting to keep out of the "western dressage" business, but they do make clear that, the training of non traditional breeds they will support, which is fairly inclusive (that was my understanding of the 2nd to last paragraph of the press release).

                                    As for riding bareback, when I was a child we had bareback equitation classes at the local shows. Jumping can be done bareback in good form.
                                    Cutting however can not. The reins must be slack in a cutting competition, after the cow is cut from the herd. You can't hang on the horses mouth at all, no contact, period.
                                    Anyone can play bareback and it is fun, however competition is a different situation altogether.
                                    To ride bareback, in either a dressage or cutting competition the rules would have to be changed , the judging criteria as well, thus making the classes different from their original form. They can't be "blended".

                                    This is a very strange thread indeed.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by katarine View Post
                                      In summary:

                                      Some posters don't know what Dressage is, but they want to change it.
                                      Some posters don't know what conformation has to do with ability.
                                      Some posters want to do 'it' their way, although they don't really know what 'it' is, not on any surface but paper or pixel.

                                      Some posters are really, really tired of playing this particular reindeer game, and will now cease attempting to educate those who just will not see.

                                      Y'all have fun.
                                      Well my summary goes a little differently.

                                      You say 'this' or 'that' can't be done.

                                      PE digs up video of both 'this and that' being done.

                                      You decide it's still not 'good enough' AND if we don't agree with you it's because we are ignorant and unwilling to learn.

                                      Okay. Check. I got it now.
                                      "Friend" me !

                                      http://www.facebook.com/isabeau.solace

                                      Comment


                                      • And let me just add that the posted Intermediare 1 test bareback on a big-strided warmblood has not yet ceased to inspire the living crap out of me. I am thoroughly inspired by this person who is far far far superior in knowledge an experience to me. It is one of those videos I meditate on. I occasionally talk to her via email still.

                                        Paula
                                        He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                                        Comment


                                        • Well I think that people on either sides of the argument can be impressed with a rider doing upper level bareback.

                                          The point isnt that it cant be done. It doesnt 'support' the training. It just is.

                                          The best way from point A to point B is a straight line of easier ways. There are all kinds of dressage saddles and dressage trainers but those two things generally go hand in hand for success.

                                          If you come onto a dressage forum and want to learn something about dressage, why not listen to the people who do incredibly dressage training and ridng?

                                          I know thats what I do
                                          ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
                                          http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

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