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Interesting, USDF on Western Dressage

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  • #61
    Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
    I think I understand your concern. I'm an upstart who presumes to ask -why not? How dare I ask whether I can ride a test bareback or in a bareback saddle (quotes are so cute)? What presumption! Why, I seem to be operating under the misapprehension that dressage is about training horse and rider, and not about gear. I mean a shoulder in is only a shoulder in if you're in the right tack! Dressage is only dressage if I'm doing it in a sand arena in top hat and rat catcher, in a dressage saddle, on a horse stamped "genuine dressage horse"?

    Yes, I do see your concern. People like me are corrupting influences.

    Upstart? Corrupting influence? uhhh .... no.

    You are a rider of limited experience who has never ridden any dressage test -- western or classical -- at any show, recognized or schooling. Nothing wrong with that. And there's nothing wrong with asking questions, either. The problem comes when you get answers from people with more experience and knowledge than you have. And you don't like what you hear.

    You need to stop reading about dressage and start doing it. Or at least listen with an open mind to people who have. You don't have to agree with every one of them. But you'll learn faster if you stop arguing about things you really don't know much about. There's no shame in being a novice. But being ignorant and stubborn just makes an annoying gadfly.
    __________________________
    "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
    the best day in ten years,
    you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by katarine View Post
      Nobody considers a 'pace' an acceptable or desired gait in a gaited horse. It's desirable in some Standardbreds on the track.
      Icelandics are routinely shown at flying pace in 5-gaited classes.

      Comment


      • #63
        Oh please. We have different ways of learning, we have different interests, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. And you know what, if something else comes along that interests me I'll try that too. And if someone brings me a new way of thinking that strikes my interest I'm all ears. If you like to learn one thing at at time, more power to you, but realize that everybody is not same, and it's not a statement of quality.

        ETA: Mp, with regards to my being ignorant and stubborn, thank you for your kind remarks.

        Paula
        He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

        Comment


        • #64
          So I am curious PE, if I was in all my dressage tack, show outfit, etc but showed up at a western competition and passaged around when asked for a jog- would I now be riding western?
          "Can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding"

          Comment


          • #65
            Lynn Kimball-Davis, USDF Gold Medalist, taught me a lesson with me riding my TWH. She loves him. Loves his regular walk, loves his canter. She said to me, except for that funny gait in the middle, you'd think he was Dutch! She did not, however, light her torch to make USDF 'accept or acknowledge' gaited dressage into it's purvue. Gaited dressage is not their thing, and as someone showing and winning and doing pretty damn well with it in schooling shows....I don't think that they should bring it into their realm. It is NOT 'Dressage.' That requires all the trappings, and the three gaits, and the directives are plainly, excruciatingly detailed, and they are all 'Dressage.'

            I am perfectly content with schooling shows, using my horse well, improving us both, and serving as ambassadors for another way this cool breed can be used. And I don't need, want, or think USDF should give two hoots about what we do.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by aktill View Post
              Icelandics are routinely shown at flying pace in 5-gaited classes.
              Thank you, I stand corrected.

              Comment


              • #67
                One truth to get down in the horse world as quickly as possible for one's own sanity is to realize that if you can't out-ride someone, you're wasting your breath trying to get them to change their minds in areas where you disagree.

                My take on the press release is that the USDF is just saying that they're neutral in the faction fight, but they won't let a dressage judge modify HOW they judge because someone says a "western" horse moves differently from a "dressage" horse (to this day I still don't know what that means).

                It's their stand on what makes a trot a trot.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by katarine View Post
                  Thank you, I stand corrected.
                  No worries, just pointing that out. I don't know of many other exceptions to your statement though.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
                    ETA: Mp, with regards to my being ignorant and stubborn, thank you for your kind remarks.
                    There is nothing wrong with being ignorant, Paula. I am totally ignorant of many equine disciplines. But I refrain from arguing with people who do actually do them.
                    __________________________
                    "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
                    the best day in ten years,
                    you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by aktill View Post
                      Careful not to be too all-encompassing there. Icelandics can do a lot of forms of lateral work in tolt, for example.
                      It is impossible to do engaging exercises with bend to develop collection in a pace. Exercises are gait dependent, bend on a volte is smaller for trot (6m) vs canter (8m) for a reason of the gait.
                      I.D.E.A. yoda

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by mp View Post
                        There is nothing wrong with being ignorant, Paula. I am totally ignorant of many equine disciplines. But I refrain from arguing with people who do actually do them.
                        Thank you for your additional kindness.

                        Paula
                        He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Correct amount of training or not the horses without a shoulder and who cant track up will have a place to go. That is a good thing to me.

                          I guess if they want to fancy up the pattern classes and hopefully begin to inject some good training in there for better quality of gait I have no problem with that.

                          I only have a problem if they are leaving the training the same canted riding with a warm up arena full of trainers asking them to "bump him down" more. Horses bitted before the class and spade bits... Yes that would bother me greatly.

                          Its already a very confusing thing over here (dressage in the US) for many people. I just watched a vid of a pony clubber doing 'dressage' and known for scoring very well with a wag every other step. The bit litterally never sat still. The hands low and braced. The horse fancy enough to hid the 'shutting' down style of riding.

                          We have our own things to make good on, and so its going to probably mix things up a bit and not all for the better.

                          I want to say the more the merry but I understand it to be that instead of dressage coaches doing these clinics, actual western trainers who took a "lesson" or read a book seem to the ones.

                          That is not going to help anyone if you ask me. Noodle necks and horses staring at the ground never helped anyone really learn to ride.

                          Parellis and other busy hands will get ahold of this and dump more misinformation into the mix. Get somone on board with credibility like Savoie and things will run a lot smoother.
                          ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
                          http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            What I'd love to hear from each of the WD orgs is HOW they're different from "real dressage".

                            I'm coming into the fringes of this discussion as an Icelandic owner who schools in western tack under a dressage coach, boarding at a dressage facility.

                            First, is my Icelandic a "western" horse, a "gaited horse", or a "dressage" horse?

                            Does using a western saddle mean I haven't been schooling dressage for all these years? I started him in a dressage saddle, but switched over to a nice comfy ranch saddle a year or so ago.

                            That said, we worked cattle in our dressage stuff, and while in our lessons and about half our other rides I use a snaffle, I often ride in a two-rein hackamore and spade bit now.

                            Is he a dressage horse when I ride in a snaffle, but a western horse when in the two rein? Was he a dressage horse back when I rode in a snaffle and dressage saddle, but switched to being western when I swapped to the wade saddle?

                            Is he a gaited horse even though we know perfectly well when to tolt and when to trot, or a dressage horse because I think we've spent about 10 mins in tolt in the last year or so? (it doesn't much interest me)

                            How would I score in a WD test if I mentally substituted "trot" for "jog", "canter" for "lope", and just remembered everything my instructor has shown me? Does it change to know that she's never even heard of WD?

                            All this above just points out how stupid it is trying to say a "western horse" is somehow different from a "dressage horse".

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
                              It is impossible to do engaging exercises with bend to develop collection in a pace.
                              Tolt is not pace. It's four beat like walk, and it's perfectly possible to engage the hind quarters and bend while doing it.

                              Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
                              Exercises are gait dependent, bend on a volte is smaller for trot (6m) vs canter (8m) for a reason of the gait.
                              Yep, biomechanics are biomechanics.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
                                RE: Too bad it's not dressage at all

                                Le Sigh. Fortunately for WD afficionados they consulted Anita Owen, FEI Olympic dressage judge
                                Anita Owen is a lovely lady. However, she is not an Olympic dressage judge.

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Driving dressage is not exactly a splinter group, as it is part of every combined driving competition. It also involves a rigorous set of standards.

                                  Seriously though, any time you allow a lower level competitor (Training, First) to ride in a curb, you are defeating the major principles of dressage. These horses inevitably are in a "false frame".

                                  From a teaching stand point, where do we begin?
                                  Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                                  Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by ezduzit View Post

                                    And certainly collection is not reserved for dressage riders. But just as a peanut rolling stock horse can't collect (without specific training to change the peanut rolling) my Harry can't uncollect. He's bred and built to sit down on his hocks and LOPE...a true, 3 beat collected, slow canter. So he could/might be able to do Grand Prix but he can't do training level.

                                    We're probably talking in circles at this point. I think it's a good idea that the USDF has drawn their guidelines so people know where they stand.
                                    Ezduzit, if your horse won't uncollect, how would it do the mediums and extensions required for a GP test? This is the problem I have with WD as the organizations have defined the gaits, even though the description of the gaits are almost identical to how TD defines them, just using the words "jog" and "lope" instead of "trot" and "canter" seems to create a difference where there shouldn't be one.

                                    Originally posted by aktill View Post
                                    What I'd love to hear from each of the WD orgs is HOW they're different from "real dressage".

                                    I'm coming into the fringes of this discussion as an Icelandic owner who schools in western tack under a dressage coach, boarding at a dressage facility.

                                    First, is my Icelandic a "western" horse, a "gaited horse", or a "dressage" horse?

                                    Does using a western saddle mean I haven't been schooling dressage for all these years? I started him in a dressage saddle, but switched over to a nice comfy ranch saddle a year or so ago.

                                    That said, we worked cattle in our dressage stuff, and while in our lessons and about half our other rides I use a snaffle, I often ride in a two-rein hackamore and spade bit now.

                                    Is he a dressage horse when I ride in a snaffle, but a western horse when in the two rein? Was he a dressage horse back when I rode in a snaffle and dressage saddle, but switched to being western when I swapped to the wade saddle?

                                    Is he a gaited horse even though we know perfectly well when to tolt and when to trot, or a dressage horse because I think we've spent about 10 mins in tolt in the last year or so? (it doesn't much interest me)

                                    How would I score in a WD test if I mentally substituted "trot" for "jog", "canter" for "lope", and just remembered everything my instructor has shown me? Does it change to know that she's never even heard of WD?

                                    All this above just points out how stupid it is trying to say a "western horse" is somehow different from a "dressage horse".
                                    I agree with this. I ride traditional dressage on a "non-traditional breed". He's a mustang, he wasn't bred for anything but survival. He may not be flashy, but he can get good scores (not world beating, but good) and beat the traditional breeds by being correct. Being correct did mean changing things he had learned as a WP horse, such as a stretchy circle was not just sticking his head down in a headset but to really take connection with the bit and stretch down.

                                    One thing I will say about WD, riding with one hand does allow you to hold your test in the other if you have trouble remembering the test. (Yes, I have seen this happen in a schooling show)

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by KurPlexed View Post
                                      Too bad it's not dressage at all

                                      ... And no matter how much some INSIST it is dressage, it will *NEVER* be. NEVER!!
                                      Get over yourselves, already.
                                      An SUV is not a race-car. A race-car is NOT an SUV.
                                      Just because I herded some cattle once, while riding in my dressage saddle, does NOT mean I ride English-Cutting Horse or English Team-Penning.

                                      Sheeesh, people! Get real, would you?!?

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by Roberta View Post
                                        Anita Owen is a lovely lady. However, she is not an
                                        Olympic dressage judge.
                                        Roberta! Quit being unkind to Paula! Paula called Anita an Olympic dressage judge; therefore, that is precicely what she is. Don't you realize that to correct her is to show contempt?
                                        Donald Trump - proven liar, cheat, traitor and sexual predator! Hillary Clinton won in 2016, but we have all lost.

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
                                          Thank you for your additional kindness.
                                          By kindness, I assume you are referring to my attempt at being direct without being malicious. And you're welcome.

                                          N.B. When it comes to gaited horses, I do not know a flat walk from a running walk from my left foot. I know what an Icelandic horse looks like and think they're cute as hell, but do not have the foggiest notion what the mechanics of a tolt are or should be.

                                          Hence, my utter silence on these matters.

                                          PS -- No need to thank me again.
                                          __________________________
                                          "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
                                          the best day in ten years,
                                          you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

                                          Comment

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