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Well, I'll be darned

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  • Well, I'll be darned

    I found a random tack sale today and of course had to stop, found a Wintec Pro pretty cheap and it actually looks like it may be a good fit! No bridging! I am wondering if maybe I should go up to the extra wide gullet instead of just the wide? Couldn't find a girth at the sale so will have to pick one up from the tack store tomorrow.

    Side

    Quarter View

    Front

    Back
    Maggie Bright, lovingly known as Skye and deeply missed (1994 - 2013)
    The Blog

  • #2
    Consider the placement of the saddle - it should not extend past the last rib

    Importance of Saddle Length

    It's well worth your time to watch the entire series - it may be a Schleese presentation but this 9 point check list is really just basic saddle fitting whatever the brand.

    So try the photo series again after you've placed the saddle more forward; if this is a CAIR panel system, girthed & loaded (with the rider) is the only way to really assess proper fit - depending on the ambient temperature, it usually takes 10-20 min for the CAIR panels to "shape" to the horse.

    Comment


    • #3
      Glad you circled back around to the old-style Wintec Pro and that the folks who were recommending it to you aren't crazy after all.

      Yes, based on the pictures, I'd go up to the XW gullet. The tree points on that Wintec Pro are longer than the tree points on your Collegiate jump saddle, hence the need for a slightly wider gullet to make things work.

      Based on these pictures, I'd also consider an anatomic or curved girth. Your horse's girth groove is pretty forward, and when you place the saddle where it really belongs on the horse's back (as you have), the billets end up hovering a few inches behind the horse's girth groove. It's a common problem, and while many horses can get away with just wearing a straight girth anyway, your horse has big beefy shoulders that are likely to interfere with a saddle that's being subtly yanked forward by a straight girth. An anatomic girth will let the saddle hang out where it needs to hang out, and the girth to hang out where it needs to hang out, without the girth billets attempting to yank the saddle forward into the horse's shoulders. Considering that the Ovation Body Form Gel Dressage Girth is priced at just $35, it couldn't hurt to buy yourself that minimal extra insurance. Ovation is distributed by English Riding Supply, so almost any tack store can order it for you. Or, of course, you can buy it online.
      Head Geek at The Saddle Geek Blog http://www.thesaddlegeek.com/

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by alto View Post
        Consider the placement of the saddle - it should not extend past the last rib
        alto, are you seeing that in the pics? Honest question--maybe I'm missing something! I agree that the saddle shouldn't extend past the 18th thoracic vertebrae and the rib that attaches to it, but the pictures look okay to me (in that department, anyway.)

        So try the photo series again after you've placed the saddle more forward; if this is a CAIR panel system, girthed & loaded (with the rider) is the only way to really assess proper fit - depending on the ambient temperature, it usually takes 10-20 min for the CAIR panels to "shape" to the horse.
        Definitely agree with this, which is why I'm not unduly stressed to see lots of wither clearance up front in the picture. Between adding a wider gullet and adding rider weight to a CAIR saddle, I suspect the wither clearance will come out right.
        Head Geek at The Saddle Geek Blog http://www.thesaddlegeek.com/

        Comment


        • #5
          and when you place the saddle where it really belongs on the horse's back (as you have)
          You really think that panel is not extending too far back?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by alto View Post
            You really think that panel is not extending too far back?
            Yes, but I admit that it's only an educated guess. Unless the horse is pretty darn thin, the 18th thoracic rib is that it's generally recessed far enough in the horse that you can't usually see it from the surface. I'm approximating its placement based on the visible ribs in the picture and their angle relative to the rib cage. Based on what I see, yeah, I think it's going to be okay once the XW gullet is put in the saddle and the saddle "settles" forward into the shoulder area.
            Head Geek at The Saddle Geek Blog http://www.thesaddlegeek.com/

            Comment


            • #7
              at least one of us is experiencing Forum lag (sadlly the time/date stamp directly places that one on me )

              See again you're ahead of me!

              I vote for OP getting out her trusty red chalk & outlining that rib/vertabrae
              & then shooting photos of the saddle as is & with the XW gullet

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by jn4jenny View Post
                Glad you circled back around to the old-style Wintec Pro and that the folks who were recommending it to you aren't crazy after all.

                Yes, based on the pictures, I'd go up to the XW gullet. The tree points on that Wintec Pro are longer than the tree points on your Collegiate jump saddle, hence the need for a slightly wider gullet to make things work.

                Based on these pictures, I'd also consider an anatomic or curved girth. Your horse's girth groove is pretty forward, and when you place the saddle where it really belongs on the horse's back (as you have), the billets end up hovering a few inches behind the horse's girth groove. It's a common problem, and while many horses can get away with just wearing a straight girth anyway, your horse has big beefy shoulders that are likely to interfere with a saddle that's being subtly yanked forward by a straight girth. An anatomic girth will let the saddle hang out where it needs to hang out, and the girth to hang out where it needs to hang out, without the girth billets attempting to yank the saddle forward into the horse's shoulders. Considering that the Ovation Body Form Gel Dressage Girth is priced at just $35, it couldn't hurt to buy yourself that minimal extra insurance. Ovation is distributed by English Riding Supply, so almost any tack store can order it for you. Or, of course, you can buy it online.
                Well I more or less decided to just stick with brands that I know instead of trying to figure out brands that I didn't know and had no experience with on eBay.

                We actually have the exact opposite problem, saddles seem to always slip back on her, as much as several inches behind where they were originally placed. Breast collars do not seem to help the issue at all. However, all the slipping back was in CC and western saddles, not sure how a saddle that is back off her shoulders will fair.

                I am not a fan of CAIR, but this saddle has it so I will just have to deal with it. I am hoping that it coupled with my thinline pad will even out the bounce factor. Too bad its so expensive to get those panels replaced.

                I am not really sure how to go about locating the 18th rib? I have never put a lot of thought into english saddle length, western saddles were a totally different story. Finding a saddle with a 25 inch or smaller girth was a nightmare back when I thought I wanted to do western stuff.

                I am a little concerned about fit for me, there wasn't a sturdy enough saddle stand for me to actually sit in the saddle in. The twist looks pretty wide, and I am typically not a fan of wide twists. I guess we shall see the verdict on that one once I get a girth.
                Maggie Bright, lovingly known as Skye and deeply missed (1994 - 2013)
                The Blog

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Okay, so I finally was able to watch the Schleese video, tracing my mouse up where he says to, it looks to me that the saddle is just in front of the line like the saddle that he showed in the video that was the right length.
                  Maggie Bright, lovingly known as Skye and deeply missed (1994 - 2013)
                  The Blog

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I'm a little uncertain about the mouse reference, draw on the horse in real life

                    You can also get shims to use with the CAIR panels (Alan at Foxhunter.ca does alot of Wintec/Bates & generally has the shims in stock, you might also discuss panel conversion with him, how to check for air bladder leakage etc - saddle looks just fine in the photos).

                    Do you have someone that can video while you ride her in the saddle?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Despite the problems you've had with saddles sliding back, I second the suggestion of an anatomic girth.

                      When using my previous saddles, both the CC and the dressage saddles slipped back horribly on my horse. I got new, correctly fitting saddles, put them back a bit where they are supposed to sit, and discovered that I needed an anatomic girth to avoid having them pulled forward. I now have anatomic girths for both of my saddles and neither of them move at all.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by alto View Post
                        I'm a little uncertain about the mouse reference, draw on the horse in real life

                        You can also get shims to use with the CAIR panels (Alan at Foxhunter.ca does alot of Wintec/Bates & generally has the shims in stock, you might also discuss panel conversion with him, how to check for air bladder leakage etc - saddle looks just fine in the photos).

                        Do you have someone that can video while you ride her in the saddle?
                        On the picture I was using my computer mouse to trace the line.

                        I have a shim-able thinline pad, but what would shims do to the CAIR panels?

                        I can see if I can snag the BO to take a video, but that won't be for at least three weeks. Maybe I can find some stuff to stack to put my camera on.
                        Maggie Bright, lovingly known as Skye and deeply missed (1994 - 2013)
                        The Blog

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Skyedragon View Post

                          I have a shim-able thinline pad, but what would shims do to the CAIR panels?
                          as you can't adjust CAIR panels in the manner of wool & they are less forgiving than wool or foam, the company offered shims - catch Alan on a quiet day & he's very happy to chat about these saddles


                          I can see if I can snag the BO to take a video, but that won't be for at least three weeks. Maybe I can find some stuff to stack to put my camera on.
                          I vote waiting for the BO
                          - I detest those videos where the rider comes in & out of the frame: rarely are they (videos) done to the limit of the technique & I spend all my video-viewing-time coaching the rider on where they should've tracked to optimize the video capture - needless to say, the rider completely ignores all my sage advice

                          Just check for sensitivity before/after each ride when trialing a new saddle (actually this is a good idea with any saddle).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Skyedragon, I don't see why you'd need the CAIR shims if you've already got a shimmable Thinline half pad. For that matter, I don't see anything in the pictures that suggests you'll need shims for this saddle. I think alto's just trying to give you some general advice about adjustability options on CAIR panels.

                            It's true that you can get shims for the old-style Wintecs that can be inserted under the CAIR panels. You'd need a saddle fitter to open up the panel to stick them in there. Apparently Wintec got wise to the fact that people who buy $500-$800 saddles are not interested in paying $120+ fees for their saddle fitters to stick a shim in their saddle, so the newer Wintecs have built-in pockets for these shims outside the panel.
                            Head Geek at The Saddle Geek Blog http://www.thesaddlegeek.com/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think alto's just trying to give you some general advice about adjustability options on CAIR panels.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Originally posted by jn4jenny View Post
                                Skyedragon, I don't see why you'd need the CAIR shims if you've already got a shimmable Thinline half pad. For that matter, I don't see anything in the pictures that suggests you'll need shims for this saddle. I think alto's just trying to give you some general advice about adjustability options on CAIR panels.

                                It's true that you can get shims for the old-style Wintecs that can be inserted under the CAIR panels. You'd need a saddle fitter to open up the panel to stick them in there. Apparently Wintec got wise to the fact that people who buy $500-$800 saddles are not interested in paying $120+ fees for their saddle fitters to stick a shim in their saddle, so the newer Wintecs have built-in pockets for these shims outside the panel.
                                I was kind of scratching my head over why I would need shims. The saddle appears to fit her well enough, hoping that I can sneak out for a ride tomorrow morning, but I am leaving for a 5 day vacation Wednesday and I have sooooo much stuff to do between now and then. However, the suspense is killing me!

                                I wish I had another wintec saddle to compare this one to, when I was cleaning up the saddle today I noticed that the CAIR panels did seem a bit squishy. Not sure how squishy they are suppose to be.
                                Maggie Bright, lovingly known as Skye and deeply missed (1994 - 2013)
                                The Blog

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Skyedragon View Post
                                  I was kind of scratching my head over why I would need shims. The saddle appears to fit her well enough, hoping that I can sneak out for a ride tomorrow morning, but I am leaving for a 5 day vacation Wednesday and I have sooooo much stuff to do between now and then. However, the suspense is killing me!

                                  I wish I had another wintec saddle to compare this one to, when I was cleaning up the saddle today I noticed that the CAIR panels did seem a bit squishy. Not sure how squishy they are suppose to be.
                                  I was looking at new Wintecs at the Equine Affaire last week, and they've changed the CAIR panels so that they're much thinner now. In fact, they're so thin (less than an inch) that I'm looking at flocked saddles again because the CAIR panels didn't look like they'd do anything that couldn't be accomplished much more flexibly, and probably better, with a pad.

                                  The older Wintecs have much thicker air pockets in the panels, which probably does make them bouncier, which some don't like, but my feeling has always been that if they have the potential to make my horse more comfortable then I'll adjust.

                                  So if you go look at Wintecs be aware that the older ones and the newer ones are going to be different.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    I am not at all a fan of the newer wintecs.

                                    I sat in the saddle today. It was pouring rain so I just did a couple laps of the barn aisle and called it good. The twist was not nearly as obnoxious as I thought it was going to be. It did feel very weird to have saddle between my calves and Skye's belly!

                                    I don't think I will actually need the extra wide gullet. Once I was in the saddle it settled down and I think extra wide would be too wide. I could fit two fingers between the gullet and her withers with me in the saddle.

                                    Here's a picture after our "ride."

                                    Saddle

                                    front view
                                    Maggie Bright, lovingly known as Skye and deeply missed (1994 - 2013)
                                    The Blog

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