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French School Peeps - A questioning mind asks a few questions...

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  • Originally posted by kaluha2 View Post
    HOLY CRAP!!!

    Here I am blubbering away watching this movie and then------.
    You went from a handful of kleenex to the whole box?

    I first saw the movie some 25 years ago and never forgot the line "Le plus difficile ... marcher droit".

    Comment


    • "You went from a handful of kleenex to the whole box?"

      LOL! No, I went from a whole box to an actual bed sheet.

      Somehow this movie is vaguely familiar to me and I must also have seen it many years ago. Some of us have been in this situation where a divorce forces the sale of your dressage horse (it also happened to me) but I sold my third level guy to a handicapped program for one dollar basically to sheild him from the divorce and gave the X his 50 cents LOL. He did land on his feet though and has a heavenly home to this day where the best of the best is still not good enough for him.

      I really wish someone could post a video or two of Racinet riding since he is often mentioned on french school threads. I think that would be educational.

      Comment


      • I'm not positive, but maybe the very first rider is him?? Or ... ??

        Dressage (French Classical) of Francois Baucher

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-zjXpurSao

        ETA: I personally don't consider the above "classical". For me "classical" must embody military riding ... and that includes contact, light contact is fine, but there has to be true contact. There are practical reasons for that based on the demands of riding over varied terrain at high speeds (more or less).
        Last edited by BaroquePony; Nov. 21, 2012, 10:24 AM.

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        • What do you all think of this video: Fabien Godelle & RONAN KEATING
          Redbud Ranch
          Check us out on FB

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          • Originally posted by BaroquePony View Post
            I'm not positive, but maybe the very first rider is him?? Or ... ??

            Dressage (French Classical) of Francois Baucher

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-zjXpurSao
            Yes, that is Racinet. And whatever is that flapping about so dangerously close to his foot at :17 ?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by BaroquePony View Post
              I'm not positive, but maybe the very first rider is him?? Or ... ??

              Dressage (French Classical) of Francois Baucher

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-zjXpurSao

              ETA: I personally don't consider the above "classical".
              I hope you don't believe in ghosts.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by alicen View Post
                Yes, that is Racinet. And whatever is that flapping about so dangerously close to his foot at :17 ?
                you mean his reins?

                i think that based on that little snippet he could clearly ride......

                however, what is presented in the video from his students? I think the musculature of the horses tell the story. I understand that we ALL are on a journey and the student is rarely as good or close to as good as the trainer - but it seems to me that a basic ingredient is missing from those horses (not Racinets ) they aren't ridden forward and are not developed over the topline.... in fact they lack muscle of any kind for the most part.

                as for the movie - i wish i understood french!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by goodpony View Post
                  What do you all think of this video: Fabien Godelle & RONAN KEATING

                  more along the lines of what i would consider good riding

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by mbm View Post
                    as for the movie - i wish i understood french!
                    I don't want to spoil it for anyone who still might watch. But in a nutshell: The seemingly dour Commander Gardefort, a Baucherist, is a former rider in Le Cadre Noir for whom riding is his whole reason for existence. The forced sale of his dearly, loved mare, Milady, to a man he ultimately lambasts for knowing nothing of riding with balance and lightness and for "breaking" the horse (this is inadequately shown in the film) eventually puts him over the edge.

                    The film is lacking in good riding footage, but the principals of French riding are all there.

                    Comment


                    • Makes one start to question how light is too light. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-zjXpurSao
                      Last edited by alicen; Nov. 21, 2012, 01:16 PM. Reason: wrong link

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
                        ... At least at the 4 ecoles they were all very different breeds..tb/sf/AA/wb).
                        Sorry IDEA you often speak in codes - what do you mean by the 4 ecoles - I have not heard that term?

                        I assume you mean the Cadre Noir, Portugal, SRS, Jerez but now of course there is the Académie du spectacle équestre at Versailles which is now, 10 years on, considered a real classical school based on the principles of Robuchon de la Guerriniere.

                        Just to clarify, at the Cadre Noir they indeed use all the standard breeds (for France) which are tb/sf/AA/wb but also occasionally and Arab and an Iberian from time to time.

                        But their big presentations with the inhand or ridden work including the Airs are mostly (exclusively) done with French bred SF's. (I spent a year en stage at the ENE and studied the breeds used by the Cadre Noir.) They will also bring out the Lusitanos to do a baroque demo from time to time.
                        Last edited by belgianWBLuver; Nov. 21, 2012, 01:50 PM.

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                        • Originally posted by mbm View Post
                          you mean his reins?

                          i think that based on that little snippet he could clearly ride......

                          however, what is presented in the video from his students? I think the musculature of the horses tell the story. I understand that we ALL are on a journey and the student is rarely as good or close to as good as the trainer - but it seems to me that a basic ingredient is missing from those horses (not Racinets ) they aren't ridden forward and are not developed over the topline.... in fact they lack muscle of any kind for the most part.

                          as for the movie - i wish i understood french!
                          Yeah I have to agree. I don't know how advanced (as in how long they have been doing this work) students or horses are but I was kinda disappointed in the muscle development in the horses. And I saw more "inconsistant" contact than I could say light contact. But I know I'm picking on these poor riders again. As always [U]JMHO[/U].
                          Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

                          Comment


                          • To be honest they do not look like any SF I have ever known/seen...for starters they look smaller and shorter legged with a slightly different looking hip angle. I was just interested because they are so UNIFORM in type--which is unusual to see (IMO). I wouldn't mind a small herd of those, thanks.
                            Redbud Ranch
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                            Comment


                            • Most of them come from farms in Normandie - which are know to breed the best SF's. When they arrive they are gangly WB's - who over the years of classical training develope into these powerhouses

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by alicen View Post
                                Makes one start to question how light is too light.
                                IMO, too light is when the horse cannot perceive the aid and therefore cannot respond to it.

                                IOW, the goal is for the aids to be invisible, so if the horse is doing what the rider wants him to do then the nature of the aids should be irrelevant.

                                Comment


                                • "i think that based on that little snippet he could clearly ride...... "

                                  Mbm: Have you ever sat and spent time watching him ride different horses or are you actually basing your opinion on the snippet?

                                  Comment


                                  • Yes, the 4 ecoles was the presentation(s) in Paris. And according to the program (of the Cadre) the horses were mostly mixes, and not SF per se. Bred in France for sure.

                                    I have watched JcR (20-30 years ago)...but there is a point that there is lightness and then there is nothing...and that easily causes posing and short outlines. And horses can be made to piaffe in a number of (problematic) ways. There is invisible, and there is invisible w/o clarity for proper balance. Imho the vid shows inactivity behind too often.

                                    Contact can be 'held by the seat' (not just the reins), but if the balance can be as problematic riding w/o contact is immaterial (witness western).
                                    I.D.E.A. yoda

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by mbm View Post
                                      you mean his reins?

                                      i think that based on that little snippet he could clearly ride......

                                      however, what is presented in the video from his students? I think the musculature of the horses tell the story. I understand that we ALL are on a journey and the student is rarely as good or close to as good as the trainer - but it seems to me that a basic ingredient is missing from those horses (not Racinets ) they aren't ridden forward and are not developed over the topline.... in fact they lack muscle of any kind for the most part.

                                      as for the movie - i wish i understood french!
                                      Please understand that when viewing students' horses, you are in some cases viewing horses that have not been long in training, and others that might have conformational defects. Also, Racinet practiced a very purely Baucherist style employed in many cases to fix the inadequacies or even outright ruinations caused by more forceful forms of riding. The horses themselves are not likely to show the "same" muscularity and type of development over the topline because they are not, in fact, ridden in the (other) frame that produces it.

                                      The right understanding on this is: Balance first, then add impulsion as you can without disturbing the balance you have created--which is the classical balance a la Guerinere of the horse poised on his hocks with an elevated front end. Look at almost any Renaissance-era engraving and you will see something similar. No, you will NOT see today's Warmblood who is taught to stretch forward and drive onto the bit. When he calls it "Another Horsemanship," the name is apt!

                                      I have found in my own work that Baucherism is to be used like paint thinner--only as much as you need, and only when you need it. Jean-Claude often said he could "make" any horse with only two things--the relaxation of the jaw and the shoulder-in. Such has been my experience as well, with all kinds of horses.

                                      I sure wouldn't throw the bay and gray early in the video out of bed for eating crackers!

                                      Comment


                                      • Correct training (baucherist or not) should develop the topline muscles and create a freely moving/impulsive/light in hand horse. And uphill frame/a horse itv should have correct muscling and pure gaits. The horses on the vid do NOT show folding of the hind legs, but ones moving up and down at the expense of the hocks. And almost ALL horses can be free in their movement regardless of breed if they are ridden traditionally.
                                        I.D.E.A. yoda

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by kaluha2 View Post
                                          Mbm: Have you ever sat and spent time watching him ride different horses or are you actually basing your opinion on the snippet?
                                          Ha! Good luck. I've googled Google France and Google Germany with no results. Maybe the CIA has some videos, but if so, they're all top secret. And apparently his photographers were also incapable of capturing his magic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiqfhHH5v5c

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