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French School Peeps - A questioning mind asks a few questions...

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  • #81
    Originally posted by mbm View Post
    Maybe I misunderstood what Kande04 was saying.... ie: young horses are being ridden with a neck that is too high and they are also being ridden too "advanced" for their age.

    Usually when folks state such they are thinking that a youngster should be going around long and low and allowed to not really be asked to work until some more advanced age.

    It is pretty prevalent POV on other boards....

    or maybe i misunderstood what Kande04 was saying.....

    and fwiw, i usually get letters/words mixed up - not concepts lol!
    I thought Kande was saying that many dressage horses are not through, and so instead are "faking" correct work. I didn't read anything about long and low into it.

    Comment


    • #82
      I have seen young, 4 year old WBs piaffing and passaging in the pasture; granted, they were built like Dutch/ German WBs, than their French, SF ancestors
      Last edited by Carol Ames; Nov. 19, 2012, 06:24 PM. Reason: ommission
      breeder of Mercury!

      remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans

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      • #83
        Nuno Oliveira is from an entirely different background (foundation of school of riding ... ie bullfighting) than the French or the Germans. It is like comparing apples to oranges.

        Here are a couple of videos of the modern Cadre Noir:


        Cadre Noir de Saumur

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQT_R...eature=related


        Cadre Noir de Saumur 2010

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIsSGnOezgA


        Le CADRE NOIR de Saumur... Film de Raymond Grelet.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szsvt...yer_embedded#!


        ____________________
        Last edited by BaroquePony; Nov. 19, 2012, 10:45 PM.

        Comment


        • #84
          Was trying to figure out what kind of horses those are==they are so consistent in type and came across this series on Euro Dressage:http://www.eurodressage.com/equestri...manship-part-i


          Which includes a video of Clip of Mr. Carde.

          Probably France’s greatest triumph was at the 1979 CDIO Aachen. Three members of the Cadre Noir -- Christian Carde, Dominique Flament and Patrick Le Rolland -- joined by Dominique d’Esmé, to finish second behind the then invincible German team in the dressage nations’ cup. Three men of the same school, who would become the French national dressage coaches in succession, brought back the unique French style to the international dressage arena. Their wonderful classical seat stood out.
          Its quite a good series of articles. At least I enjoyed reading it as in includes quite a bit of history.
          Redbud Ranch
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          • #85
            Originally posted by mbm View Post
            Maybe I misunderstood what Kande04 was saying.... ie: young horses are being ridden with a neck that is too high and they are also being ridden too "advanced" for their age.
            I didn't state that well. What I think I'm seeing is a lot of "faking". So instead of the horse's head and neck coming into a natural position which reflects the position of his body, the methods du jour seem to be much more concerned with holding the head and neck in a position which mimics the one it would be in if the horse was more collected.

            So we see intro and training level horses with vertical (or btv) faces (with either short, tight, high necks, or with tight, low ones often broken at the 3rd vertebra), even though they're still on the forehand with their hinds trailing. And instead of penalizing the tight reins and neck positioning so that everyone can learn what's real and what's fake, it's rewarded as if it's correct!

            Usually when folks state such they are thinking that a youngster should be going around long and low and allowed to not really be asked to work until some more advanced age.
            I don't think horses should be asked to work harder until they're mature, so would much rather see horses working at the walk and slow trot while learning, than see them charging around against the bit at the working gaits because that makes them look like they've achieved a more advanced stage of training.

            Comment


            • #86
              Originally posted by kande04 View Post
              This brings up something I've been thinking about more lately relative to testing.

              Not sure if I can explain it, but I feel as if training has become more about riding the tests rather than training the horse, so instead of taking the time that it takes to train a horse to use his body in ways that will allow him to develop good enough balance so that he can maintain a light, steady contact with the bit, we skip all that time consuming training and just put him against the bit so that it looks as if he's balanced enough to be able to maintain a steady contact.

              And then we hold him in the "frame" of a much more advanced horse, even though the front part of the frame doesn't match the back part.

              Same with getting a movement precisely at the letter. Instead of putting the time in to develop the training to the point where the horse can easily make a transition whenever and wherever, we instead muscle him into the transition at the letter to gain points. And as long as the judges reward the accuracy of the transition more than the quality of the transition, then exhibitors continue to go for muscling horses around the rectangle rather than taking the time it takes to get their horses balanced and responsive enough to be able to demonstrate true balance, rather than the ugly caricatures that substitute for the real thing.

              Not that I think that anyone is trying to misrepresent what they do, or teach, but only that few realize just how much time it takes to develop the real thing.

              There's a saying that many here know "Do you ride to test the training or train to ride the test?"
              Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

              Comment


              • #87
                Sorry, just catching up. I doubt NO was worried about his success as a trainer. I don't think he sued anyone about it

                Originally posted by alicen View Post
                Really? Sounds like a certain poster here who blames the powers that be for his lack of success as a trainer.

                CFFarm, do you know the source of that quote?
                "Reflections on Equestrian Art".
                Last edited by CFFarm; Nov. 20, 2012, 06:52 AM. Reason: too early
                Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

                Comment


                • #88
                  Originally posted by kande04 View Post
                  And instead of penalizing the tight reins and neck positioning so that everyone can learn what's real and what's fake, it's rewarded as if it's correct!
                  Is it? Not in my experience. I've ridden quite a few test where my guy (dutch harness horse with a tendency to get very high and tight in front) was btv and hocks out behind, and got absolutely nailed to the wall. Not just by one judge, but by many. When I learned to keep him packaged together even when I had to go down the centerline (because I, like many others, avow I ride so much better at home) our scores jumped by 20 percentage points.

                  I just don't see that judges are ignoring these faults, no matter what school.

                  What you may be seeing is a body of adult amateurs who are trying hard but leave most of that quality work in the warmup arena or back at the home barn. We're trying to get better, but we're just not perfect.

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    goodpony, the article that you posted was excellent. That was one of the best articles I've read in a long, long time. Cadre's willingness to discuss modern competitive dressage within the history leading up to it was nicely stated.

                    I do consider Cadre to be classical military French (a good thing).

                    http://www.eurodressage.com/equestri...manship-part-i

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Just for an expedient response - i am going to say that sure there are lots of folks who misunderstand the scales etc. However, that does not mean that the methods are wrong.

                      and GOOD trainer - no matter what school they are from - works the horse so that it learns to use its body correctly - usually that means the head/neck in the beginning go where ever the youngster needs them to go so they can stay balanced. Over time, using forward/ rhythm/relaxation/ which leads to lateral suppleness which leads to a lowering of the neck (not much below the point of the hip tho) which leads to ......

                      a youngster asked to go long and low is usually going to be put on the forehand which is opposite of what we want. allowing a horse - even a baby to use its body sloppily is asking for injury.

                      as for work: they need to learn to work their bodies hard - but done in small doses - so you work a baby for 15 minutes - briskly - in age appropriate work....because after all you are creating a habit of a lifetime... by the time they are 4 they should be working 20 minutes brisk work, by 5 they are grown up and should be working a full workout .

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Originally posted by goodpony View Post
                        Was trying to figure out what kind of horses those are==they are so consistent in type and came across this series on Euro Dressage:http://www.eurodressage.com/equestri...manship-part-i
                        ...
                        Because the French are so chauvinistic - the only horses they use in the Cadre Noir are French bred SF's. However they do use certain lines predisposed to dressage. (And in those lines you will find links to German and Dutch horses as well - but don't mention that to a Frenchman )

                        Originally posted by BaroquePony View Post
                        Nuno Oliveira is from an entirely different background (foundation of school of riding ... ie bullfighting) than the French or the Germans. It is like comparing apples to oranges...
                        True - what happened according to Michel Henriquet and Lucien Gruss is that the true classical school of Francois Robuchon de la Guerriniere was preserved by the SRS in Vienna and by many of the Portugese and some of the Spanish Rejon riders. Others I know are de Braganca, Oliveira, Sommer-Andrade and the like. Two of the newer schools that are adhereing to the de la Guerriniere school are the Royal School of Lisbon in Portugal, and the Jerez academy (the Portugese school more so that the Spanish school IMO). I sincerely hope in this economy they can be preserved.
                        Some of the riders in France that I know who adhere to the de la Guerriniere school are P. Karl, Henriquet, Lucien Gruss (circus) and Bartabas (spectacles). Yes Bartabas really does adhere to the traditional prinicples even though he earns his living doing Spectacles. His school in the Grandes Ecuries de Versailles absolutely follows these principles in the closest way possible. Many poo poo him cuz hes a little artsy fartsy but IMO he is excellent.

                        The Cadre Noir went a different route decades ago and in France is not considered to follow the de la Guerriniere school (although they use many of the same base exercises)

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          We had a pony born here that was exported to France (same mother as my guy-so his sister). She will start in the young pony show jumping over there next season. My understanding is that Show Jumping is pretty much the only game in town -- not many young riders pursuing dressage as their central focus.
                          Redbud Ranch
                          Check us out on FB

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                          • #93
                            Yes true, show jumping is highly popular among kids and adults. There just aren't many dressage trainers. And those there are are usually in expensive (kind of snobby) barns with high rates and a requirement for expensive horses.

                            Jumping can be found everywhere, you can get a lower quality SF horse or OTTB or Trotter or just a grade and once you pass the "Gallops" for your comp license you can have at it. Schooling shows abound also with jumping for the poney clubbers all the way up to adult ammies.

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              Originally posted by cnm161 View Post
                              Is it? Not in my experience. I've ridden quite a few test where my guy (dutch harness horse with a tendency to get very high and tight in front) was btv and hocks out behind, and got absolutely nailed to the wall. Not just by one judge, but by many. When I learned to keep him packaged together even when I had to go down the centerline (because I, like many others, avow I ride so much better at home) our scores jumped by 20 percentage points.

                              I just don't see that judges are ignoring these faults, no matter what school.

                              What you may be seeing is a body of adult amateurs who are trying hard but leave most of that quality work in the warmup arena or back at the home barn. We're trying to get better, but we're just not perfect.
                              A lot of incorrect work has been highly scored at the international level.

                              Sounds like the judges you've been riding in front of are scoring correctly.

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                I think judging can vary greatly depending on regions and the politics of an area.

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Yup I think politics has had a BIG role in judging.

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Originally posted by BaroquePony View Post
                                    goodpony, the article that you posted was excellent. That was one of the best articles I've read in a long, long time. Cadre's willingness to discuss modern competitive dressage within the history leading up to it was nicely stated.

                                    I do consider Cadre to be classical military French (a good thing).

                                    http://www.eurodressage.com/equestri...manship-part-i
                                    Im glad you enjoyed the read--I certainly did too. I think what fascinated me was the authors discussion of the Cardes relationship with his horse--I think maybe that is what Im taking away from this discussion that there is something 'different' to my mind that shows in the relationship between horse and rider in at least some of the videos that were linked too. Especially when you compare that to what is shown in Sezuan video.

                                    And at least for my own self, I can see that even with in my own fiddling around with French Methods there is something different going on with my pony---and it didn't happen in the saddle but seems to have carried over to his enthusiasm and willingness for ridden work.
                                    Redbud Ranch
                                    Check us out on FB

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                                    • #98
                                      Originally posted by BaroquePony View Post
                                      I do consider Cadre to be classical military French (a good thing).
                                      And speaking of French military training and Le Cadre Noir, here is a made for TV French movie dealing with just that. Having failed to receive the appointment of head of Le CN, Gardefort - a military officer- chooses to take a fast approaching, mandatory military retirement. While procuring horses for the military, he buys a mare for himself and trains her up for 2 years until his divorce forces the horse's sale. Milady is sold to a rich gentleman who, much to Gardefort's distress, trains her like a circus horse. Caution: a simple, well done, disturbing film. Sadly, no subtitles.
                                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsEyHudWjuM&feature=fvsr

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        HOLY CRAP!!!

                                        Here I am blubbering away watching this movie and then------.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by kande04 View Post
                                          ... What I think I'm seeing is a lot of "faking". So instead of the horse's head and neck coming into a natural position which reflects the position of his body, the methods du jour seem to be much more concerned with holding the head and neck in a position which mimics the one it would be in if the horse was more collected.
                                          A 'natural position' for a green horse is very open and quite high and very active. What happens too often today is either the horses are allowed (nee requested) to keep that position with a closed throat latch and then taken lower and closed. This means the rider imposes themselves on the horse, makes the bars pay the bill, and the horse never 'seeks the hand'/opens the throat latch. Worse yet, this lowered posture is imposed on 'training level posture' is imposed for long periods of time.

                                          ...the only horses they use in the Cadre Noir are French bred SF's....
                                          At least at the 4 ecoles they were all very different breeds..tb/sf/AA/wb).

                                          I don't think horses should be asked to work harder until they're mature, so would much rather see horses working at the walk and slow trot while learning, than see them charging around against the bit at the working gaits because that makes them look like they've achieved a more advanced stage of training.
                                          Some varied thought on the subject of work. They should work when they work, but it should be for brief periods with a LOT of walk breaks. The 'charging around' today is three fold: to keep submission/to keep the horse which is on the forehand upright/but to make the gaits APPEAR to better than they are. However IF ONE WATCHES the flayling legs really hide nothing. Horses like Sezuan have normal nice gaits (if ridden at a proper tempo) as did Toto UNTIL are ridden over tempo...and this would have been DECRIED even 20 years ago. AND it is very hard on the horses. How many survive (ridden into old age) any longer?
                                          I.D.E.A. yoda

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