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French School Peeps - A questioning mind asks a few questions...

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  • #61
    That little horse is so stinkin cute!
    Redbud Ranch
    Check us out on FB

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    • #62
      Originally posted by stryder View Post
      I think this is an important concept, and one of the big differences between what's conveniently referred to as "classical" and what's conveniently referred to as "competitive" - without the French and German designators.

      I am more focused on the quality of the transition itself, than the precision of where it occurs. I am looking for a certain feeling, which is nearly impossible for someone else to see. If it takes a couple steps beyond A for us to really be ready, that's OK with me.
      This brings up something I've been thinking about more lately relative to testing.

      Not sure if I can explain it, but I feel as if training has become more about riding the tests rather than training the horse, so instead of taking the time that it takes to train a horse to use his body in ways that will allow him to develop good enough balance so that he can maintain a light, steady contact with the bit, we skip all that time consuming training and just put him against the bit so that it looks as if he's balanced enough to be able to maintain a steady contact.

      And then we hold him in the "frame" of a much more advanced horse, even though the front part of the frame doesn't match the back part.

      Same with getting a movement precisely at the letter. Instead of putting the time in to develop the training to the point where the horse can easily make a transition whenever and wherever, we instead muscle him into the transition at the letter to gain points. And as long as the judges reward the accuracy of the transition more than the quality of the transition, then exhibitors continue to go for muscling horses around the rectangle rather than taking the time it takes to get their horses balanced and responsive enough to be able to demonstrate true balance, rather than the ugly caricatures that substitute for the real thing.

      Not that I think that anyone is trying to misrepresent what they do, or teach, but only that few realize just how much time it takes to develop the real thing.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by goodpony View Post
        again--I can't help but notice the softness of the expression and the attentiveness of the ears on the rider/handler.
        The rider has attentive ears? I don't see it. I wish my ears were more expressive; there's no mistaking relaxed floppy, happy ears with those pinned back. Maybe this should be added to the judging of the riders position, although helmuts might limit the mobility.
        Last edited by alicen; Nov. 19, 2012, 06:59 AM. Reason: feeling goofy

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        • #64
          kande04, I think you've articulated this issue quite clearly.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by kande04 View Post
            .....so instead of taking the time that it takes to train a horse to use his body in ways that will allow him to develop good enough balance so that he can maintain a light, steady contact with the bit, we skip all that time consuming training and just put him against the bit so that it looks as if he's balanced enough to be able to maintain a steady contact.

            And then we hold him in the "frame" of a much more advanced horse, even though the front part of the frame doesn't match the back part.
            What is interesting is that a young horse which is up/open/free/uphill is much more easily 'advanced' than a horse which is compressed/vertical/closed. Yet few people are taught the former. And the later is not advanced.
            I.D.E.A. yoda

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            • #66
              Originally posted by alicen View Post
              Thank you for your efforts, ideayoda, but the videos are just so brief, meer snippets. What do people think of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=kSnTbZvX8a4
              lovely work!

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              • #67
                Re: Kande's post.

                You know i used to be in that camp, but the more I have learned and the more I have advanced my own horses (or not, as the case may be) I think that the common word on the street so to speak about training horses is incorrect.

                This whole idea that young horses should go around with their neck low and on the forehand, forever in long and low - and that you cant let the horse advance until it is old and grey - this is just not the reality of good trainers.

                I honestly lost at least 10 years of my riding life to listening to this crap. Sorry but it is true!

                Classical German system does NOT ask the horse to go around with its nose on the floor... it is a very precise method for training which asks the youngster to first and foremost go forward then find a rhythm and then start building its body - the neck goes where the neck goes as long as the horse is not on the forehand - if it is so you ask the horse to bring its neck up.

                I find it interesting that those that suggest the do not advance type of training never advance in their own work.

                Youngsters need to be challenged and ridden in a way that advances them.... otherwise what is the point?

                fwiw, the above is not pointed at anyone - more so at my own self that i was over the last 10 years

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                • #68
                  I think showing requires a skill set of its own--schooling at home is just not the same as being in the show ring (especially if you are riding young and green). It takes a certain bit of 'milage' for a horse/rider pair to sort of work this out--and then a certain mindset to ride/prepare for the tests/competition. At home we often produce quality above what we see in the showing. It takes a certain bit of milage just to begin to reproduce that quality in the show ring.

                  I had to laugh this summer when my pony said would you get out of my face and ride like we do at home--alas we will probably never show enough to really develop this skill set properly in dressage.

                  PS. Im not talking about professionals whose job it is to show/compete young horses for a living (they likely have the proper skill set)---mainly talking about your average adult amateur.
                  Last edited by goodpony; Nov. 19, 2012, 11:43 AM.
                  Redbud Ranch
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                  • #69
                    How could Anja not be someone’s “cup of tea” - as always a lovely, talented rider whose horses are well schooled.

                    From a previous poster just a correction. The French do not say “ou est le boeuf” – that is simply a translation from English. There is really no expression for this type of phrase in French. But then you wouldn’t know that


                    Ummm why do we need another thread for the French school? I’m starting to get “hyper-perdu” aka "very lost" keeping track of all these threads

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
                      What is interesting is that a young horse which is up/open/free/uphill is much more easily 'advanced' than a horse which is compressed/vertical/closed. Yet few people are taught the former. And the later is not advanced.
                      No, but I think the position of the head and neck give the impression of a more advanced horse, without having to actually bring the horse into a more advanced balance. I think it's easier to see that the head and neck is held in a position that simulates collection, than it is to learn to see what the rest of the horse's body is doing.

                      So that could be where it all started, and then if that's all judges see then they have to score what's in front of them whether they can see that the horse is in a more advanced balance, or not.

                      Course they don't have to give 6's, 7's or 8's, but I suppose if the horse is a great mover he's going to look a lot better than one who is a much more modest mover but is nonetheless in a better balance, so it must be hard to give a great mover a 4 or 5 when he looks so much better to the untrained eye?

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by mbm View Post
                        Re: Kande's post.

                        You know i used to be in that camp, but the more I have learned and the more I have advanced my own horses (or not, as the case may be) I think that the common word on the street so to speak about training horses is incorrect.

                        This whole idea that young horses should go around with their neck low and on the forehand, forever in long and low - and that you cant let the horse advance until it is old and grey - this is just not the reality of good trainers.

                        I honestly lost at least 10 years of my riding life to listening to this crap. Sorry but it is true!

                        Classical German system does NOT ask the horse to go around with its nose on the floor... it is a very precise method for training which asks the youngster to first and foremost go forward then find a rhythm and then start building its body - the neck goes where the neck goes as long as the horse is not on the forehand - if it is so you ask the horse to bring its neck up.

                        I find it interesting that those that suggest the do not advance type of training never advance in their own work.

                        Youngsters need to be challenged and ridden in a way that advances them.... otherwise what is the point?

                        fwiw, the above is not pointed at anyone - more so at my own self that i was over the last 10 years
                        I'm confused -- your post and Kande's post don't seem to me to have anything in common. Kande isn't talking about doing long and low forever, in fact nothing of the sort.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          mbm, now that you stated (somewhere on one of these threads) that you are dyslexic, some of your posts make better sense to me .

                          I understood kande04's post and thought it made perfect sense, and I basically agree with it. Well said.

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                          • #73
                            Maybe I misunderstood what Kande04 was saying.... ie: young horses are being ridden with a neck that is too high and they are also being ridden too "advanced" for their age.

                            Usually when folks state such they are thinking that a youngster should be going around long and low and allowed to not really be asked to work until some more advanced age.

                            It is pretty prevalent POV on other boards....

                            or maybe i misunderstood what Kande04 was saying.....

                            and fwiw, i usually get letters/words mixed up - not concepts lol!

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by belgianWBLuver View Post
                              How could Anja not be someone’s “cup of tea” - as always a lovely, talented rider whose horses are well schooled.
                              <shrug> she looks stiff and her horses look not supple......

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                I thought kande04 was referring to this type of situation:


                                The infamous sales video of Maxwell:

                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8OqW2ZlujI

                                vs.

                                Photos of Max as he has become healthy (unfinished website blog thing):

                                http://ponytaleswebsite.com/maxwell_movement.html

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Perhaps Kande will post some video examples of what s/he is talking about?

                                  i will admit that i am assuming i know who Kande is and responding based on that hunch...... i might be totally off base tho. wouldnt be the first time lol!

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by belgianWBLuver View Post
                                    The French do not say “ou est le boeuf” – that is simply a translation from English. There is really no expression for this type of phrase in French. But then you wouldn’t know that
                                    It's a joke. Where's the accent on your "ou"?

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by alicen View Post
                                      It's a joke. Where's the accent on your "ou"?
                                      Est bien, je frappe sur un QWERTY clavier et je suis trop parreseuse d'aller chercher l'accent.

                                      I think it is absolutely true that (in general) the Germans/Dutch/Danish are breeding towards their type of dressage> Just look at this vid from another thread called: SEZUAN new RECORD

                                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7a8-...=results_video

                                      The classisists (German, French, Portugese, Americans, etc...)
                                      tend, in general not in all cases, to work with which ever animal they have. Or some lean more towards the baroque because that may be more their cup of tea.

                                      Catherine Henriquet is one I know who starts and teaches all her young WB's from the classical book - discussion already had in the Spinoff thread.

                                      Uta Graf, another, who deploys many classical techniques in her training.

                                      Bothe ride in numerous FEI comps but they compromise during the comp for the sake of gaining points. Do they sell themselves? Yes. Should they? Yes cuz, chasing comps is too darned expensive not to.

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Uta Graf video:


                                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hraoW...eature=related

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by BaroquePony View Post
                                          Oh Thx Baroque! And I mean all Uta's horses work like this! Great work and Damon Jerome still works like this 2 years later!!

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