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Training with treats - do you?

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  • Yeah, that video just reinforced why I shouldn't use them under saddle. What a disaster that would have been with several of the horses and ponies that I have worked with.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by countrygal View Post
      Originally posted by horsehand View Post
      There is a body of work taking place, interrupted again and again by a now distracted horse looking for his treat.
      Originally posted by BaroquePony View Post
      Yeah, that video just reinforced why I shouldn't use them under saddle. What a disaster that would have been with several of the horses and ponies that I have worked with.
      That video demonstrated why you don't use treats without a CLICK, not why you don't use treats. A CLICKER trained horse does not turn and ask for a treat unless he hears a click. And the trainer doesn't give the click until he's ready for the horse to stop the work and get a treat.
      I have a Fjord! Life With Oden

      Comment


      • I guess I'm just to lazy and uncoordinated to try to clicker train upward and downward transitions .... I'll bet extensions would be fun.

        I need to focus on my own equitation if I want my horse to take working seriously.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by horsefaerie View Post
          Meupat, save your energy.
          Circular nonsense for whatever reason is circular nonsense. Some folks just post in a snarky way. It does something for them.
          who was the SNARK?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
            So let's sum up.

            I post to a third party, unrelated to you, "I'm glad someone else finds this phrase unhelpful because I can't make heads or tails of it either."

            You then pop in with how you are not sure why the "lovely phrase" is "triggering negativity."

            I proceed to (re)explain that, though the phrase is lovely, it doesn't provide ME, IN MY OPINION, with enough explanation to actually implement anything. Thus I am frustrated when I spend money on clinics when this is the only thing the clinician says.

            This is apparently not enough, because then you go on about how the instructor was just a bad explainer, not that the phrase itself is bad. (Which for the record was exactly my sentiment, immediately prior: that the phrase is fine as a phrase on its own, but it does not sufficiently explain anything else in my opinion when I am spending $500.)

            Still apparently looking for an argument, you proceed to say you are "surprised" at my "confusion" because it "should be apparent." Apparently I can not be permitted to just not find a particular phrase helpful as an instructional tool. If I even allude to it to a third party who is not you I should be repeatedly questioned.

            Do you feel personally confronted when I post agreement to someone who isn't even you? Do you feel personally confronted when I respond to YOU repeatedly questioning me? How did I confront you again???

            Do I have to like this phrase to not be confronting you, or else at the very least feel a little bit stupid about it? For some reason it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to read, "Hm. Some people don't find this phrase helpful," and just leave them alone about it? It is not actually a personal attack on anyone else, or in anyway confrontational, that I don't find "lovely phrases" to be good riding instruction from MY perspective.

            So again, is there SOME REASON it is a problem for you that I don't find this one particular thing helpful, and that I happen to agree with someone else on the thread on that matter? You are the one who apparently can't let it lie and is out on some mission to get everyone in the world to agree that this lovely phrase is helpful.

            Is there some reason you can't just let me exist, agreeing with one other person on this thread that one particular phrase is unhelpful to us, without repeatedly posting about it? What exactly prompted you to pick up the torch on this?
            Oi Vey

            This would play so much better if you'd not engaged in this sort of nonsense

            What am I ALLOWED to find unhelpful, according to alto?



            ETA Rating:
            BAD poster, BAD
            Last edited by alto; Nov. 8, 2012, 06:40 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by alto View Post
              Oi Vey

              This would play so much better if you'd not engaged in this sort of nonsense



              If I were to Find Things Unhelpful With Quality, would that play well enough for you?

              Was your emoticon Rolling Its Eyes Wiyh Quality or just regular rolling its eyes?

              I'm not sure you're COTHing with quality. UH OH.
              The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
              Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
              Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
              The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

              Comment


              • Originally posted by horsefaerie View Post
                So you can't tell me why you are against them, you just persist with being rude and suggesting you know anything about ME for one and others who have posted on this thread.

                I don't have any hang ups.

                You have no idea what my focus is at all.

                I didn't ask you your opinion of my questions.

                I don't do intoxication of any kind.

                Lovely phrase "Ride your horse with quality". Doesn't mean anything.

                Are you a politician, here on COTH incognito?
                Originally posted by horsehand View Post
                You are quite defensive.
                Ah yes, the go-to response when someone responds to a post that has made assumtions about that someone with a point-by-point refutation. Oh you are SO defensive!
                Donald Trump - proven liar, cheat, traitor and sexual predator! Hillary Clinton won in 2016, but we have all lost.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by horsehand View Post
                  Oh boy, I am such a killjoy in this crowd. But...FWIW
                  Am I the only one who thinks this is demeaning to the horse? The crowd finds it so cute and adorable. Here is what I see.: There is a body of work taking place, interrupted again and again by a now distracted horse looking for his treat. So an entire new behavior is introduced, and a now ingrained response that the horse cannot help himself over, and everyone laughs. I find it sad. Disturbing even. The only way now to inhibit that horse from whipping his head around for his treat, would be for the rider to resist with his rein. And now we have created an entirely unwanted response that has to be countered by another from the rider. It is a complete distraction from the work at hand. This is not classical riding and training, in my book. But trick training. This only convinces me more why I do not like using treats in training.
                  actually, my guess is that this horse has never been given food reward for under saddle work so is "turning himself inside out" for the reward....

                  He needs to learn what the rewards are for - what you do to illicit them etc and the head whipping around would stop.

                  Comment


                  • I've started clicker training my OTTB (from the ground). So far, so good. I can see the wheels turning in his head, which is a major step for a herdbound, energetic TB

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Pocket Pony View Post
                      The main thing I wanted to work on was a voice command and hand signal for "come" - I trail ride a lot and if I ever came off and wanted him to come back to me, I want a command for that.
                      if you do a lot of clicker training the last thing you'll ever need is a "command" for come. What you'll need a command for go away. :-)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cindyg View Post
                        A CLICKER trained horse does not turn and ask for a treat unless he hears a click.
                        Only if the trainer has actually taken the time to teach the horse that the only time he'll get the treat is if he's been clicked first. Which means that the trainer would have to desensitize the horse to all the other markers that surround treat giving until the horse understood that he was only going to get the treat after the click.

                        There are *a lot* of markers that become associated with the treats, which means that if it's important to the trainer that her horse doesn't react to any of them then the trainer has to take the time to train that.

                        IOW, just because the trainer only gives the treat after the click that doesn't mean that the horse won't expect the treat when the trainer takes her hand out of the treat bag, or extends her hand, or moves her hand in a way that the horse recognizes as part of the treat giving sequence. Those actions can and will become markers that predict the treat in the absence of specific training to prevent that.

                        Comment


                        • I've read the majority of the posts. I have a pony cross who I backed and trained myself. He's "well broke." WTC, hacks out/jumps and really solid undersaddle. I didn't use treats--I think they would distract him, and I want the releases and praises I give just in my riding to suffice. I feel like treating him during a ride would undermine the power of the other praise I give--since he is pretty food obsessed and would consider it the "ultimate praise"

                          However, treats have been helpful during groundwork. He used to be terrible about having his main pulled, now he knows to stand firm then look to me for the treat after I've pulled out several sections. I see it as useful for groundwork but less so for riding.
                          2007 Welsh Cob C X TB GG Eragon
                          Our training journal.
                          1989-2008 French TB Shamus Fancy
                          I owned him for fifteen years, but he was his own horse.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cindyg View Post
                            A CLICKER trained horse does not turn and ask for a treat unless he hears a click.
                            Originally posted by kande04 View Post
                            Only if the trainer has actually taken the time to teach the horse that the only time he'll get the treat is if he's been clicked first. Which means that the trainer would have to desensitize the horse to all the other markers that surround treat giving until the horse understood that he was only going to get the treat after the click.

                            There are *a lot* of markers that become associated with the treats, which means that if it's important to the trainer that her horse doesn't react to any of them then the trainer has to take the time to train that.

                            IOW, just because the trainer only gives the treat after the click that doesn't mean that the horse won't expect the treat when the trainer takes her hand out of the treat bag, or extends her hand, or moves her hand in a way that the horse recognizes as part of the treat giving sequence. Those actions can and will become markers that predict the treat in the absence of specific training to prevent that.
                            Has that been your experience with clicker training? Because it hasn't been mine. When I handle treats, move them around in my pocket, open bags, etc., my horse does not look around for a treat. He knows that treats come only after clicks.

                            If, when you are first introducing clicker training to a horse, you rattle a treat bag (without clicking) and he turns to you expecting a treat, you simply don't give him the treat. If he shoves into you, still no treat. When he gives up the mugging and looks forward, THEN you click and give him the treat. Most horses get the hang of this within minutes.

                            It's a really neat system!
                            I have a Fjord! Life With Oden

                            Comment


                            • One more thing I would like to add, and have people think about, if they haven't all ready. This is my argument: A person mentioned operant conditioning. That came out of the animal behaviorist of the B.F. Skinner school. He did not differentiate between species. All that mattered was behavior modification through punishment/reward, then later evolved into emphasis on reward. But the same could be done with a mouse or a monkey or a chicken, or a mouse in a maze. It was just behavior.
                              We have to ask ourselves, do we want our horse like a trained monkey, tricking their brain and body to perform as we please? Or would we rather pursue a relationship with a unique animal capable of thinking and feeling his way through things based on the way they are presented to him. Someone here said they want their horse to be willing and want to please. I say, once we are in his confidence, he wants to please us by his very nature, not by training with treats or clickers. It is a non verbal, right brain approach, and we are communicating not just through trained responses, they will happen anyway, but with a horse listening to our aids and connection every stride. Isn't that a goal of dressage? Isn't that why you cannot use your voice in the ring? or a clicker? Is it: here is how the horse is listening to me every stride in harmony, or: here is my trained monkey?! The more we apply animal behaviorist science to the horse, the further we get from a true communication and willingness. That is how I see it.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cindyg View Post
                                Has that been your experience with clicker training? Because it hasn't been mine. When I handle treats, move them around in my pocket, open bags, etc., my horse does not look around for a treat. He knows that treats come only after clicks.
                                Yes, that has been my experience. There's a treat giving sequence that involves moving my hand into my pocket, bringing my hand out of my pocket, and extending my hand toward my horse and my horse recognizes that sequence. I could take the time to fake him out repeatedly by going through those motions without giving him a treat unless I'd clicked first, but my prediction is that 1) I'd have to do that often, and 2) he'd still take the treat if I extended it to him without clicking first.

                                Those that I've gone to the trouble to teach them to keep their head straight and not turn toward the treat will do that, but they'll still stop and wait (with their head straight) when they see me put my hand in my pocket, remove it from my pocket, or extend my hand toward them. IOW, they won't reach for the treat, but their attention shifts to receiving the treat as soon as they recognize any part of the treat giving sequence.

                                What happens between the click and treat is reinforced every time we treat, so it would be a big project to teach a horse not to take a treat unless the click preceded those actions.

                                It's a really neat system!
                                It really is, although I think it's prudent to be very careful about using it extensively if one isn't reasonably certain that the horse is going to be handled by clicker trainers, or those who understand and accept clicker training.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by horsehand View Post
                                  The more we apply animal behaviorist science to the horse, the further we get from a true communication and willingness. That is how I see it.
                                  Pressure and release training is just as easily described by learning theory as is clicker training.

                                  Your arguments could just as easily be applied the other way around. Do we really want the kind of relationship with our horses that's trained and enforced with bits, whips and spurs or would we rather have the kind of relationship that's trained and maintained with food rewards.

                                  Some like one, some like the other, some like a combination of the two. IOW, personal preference.

                                  Comment


                                  • Does this horse look like a trained monkey?
                                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6N1ZiA8SUyk

                                    Or this one?
                                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5we6...layer_embedded
                                    The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                                    Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                                    Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                                    The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                                      That was lovely...thanks for posting it. I thought your video on self-loading ( I think it was yours) was well done as well.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Ticker View Post
                                        That was lovely...thanks for posting it. I thought your video on self-loading ( I think it was yours) was well done as well.



                                        I absolutely love that first video.
                                        I first saw it a couple of years ago and I am STILL working to get even half as good with my horse.
                                        The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                                        Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                                        Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                                        The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by goodpony View Post
                                          Guilty as charged! If Im working something new or difficult and get a particularly good response---I quit right then and there and go back to the barn. We are through for that day---and this is the most effective reward I have found combined with treats and making much.
                                          Add me to this! I am a sucker for my mare's "I 'wuv' you, what is in your pocket?" face.
                                          http://dotstreamming.blogspot.com/

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