• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Training with treats - do you?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by horsefaerie View Post

    I have seen decent horses stall at training level with their riders for years. THeir canters sucked and instead of going to second level lateral work to iron out the strength issues they just stayed "stuck".
    I understand how hard it is to believe that some are not all that interested in getting to GP, but the truth is that some just simply aren't. Not that they have no interest in progressing at all, but only that they really are much more interested in the journey, even if their journey is limited to the perfection of training level skills.

    Not that getting stuck at training or first or second is limited to those who are savoring the journey, as there are just as many, if not more, who are determined to get as close to the olympics as possible, yet are still stuck at the lower levels.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Ajierene View Post
      I am personally against treats for most training. I prefer pressure and release and my personal experience has been that this type of training makes the training stick better.
      And mine is almost the opposite, but that may be because the behaviors I've trained using treats have a much larger reinforcement history than those I've trained using negative R (pressure/release).

      I've also read that behaviors that have been trained using positive R have to be changed/retrained using positive R (can't change them using negative R), and I think that's true. So if I inadvertently trained a behavior using positive R and then wanted to fix it, and it had a huge R history, then it would take just as much/more positive R to change it.

      The same is likely just as true of negatively reinforced behaviors.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by kande04 View Post
        I've also read that behaviors that have been trained using positive R have to be changed/retrained using positive R (can't change them using negative R), and I think that's true. So if I inadvertently trained a behavior using positive R and then wanted to fix it, and it had a huge R history, then it would take just as much/more positive R to change it.

        The same is likely just as true of negatively reinforced behaviors.
        Something about that idea strikes me as wrong, unless we are getting into the idea of "tricks" again. Or perhaps it's dependent on how the positive reward is used. In my training using food rewards I am still putting pressure on, looking for the horse to respond in a certain direction, at which point the pressure is released, the horse is praised and the food reward given. So which am I using? Pressure/release or positive R? The horse has certainly learned that when the pressure releases he has gone in the right direction and will try it again when the pressure is applied the next time. And over time the horse's confidence has developed to the point he doesn't want the food reward for things he knows (even as we work further on refining and improving the response) - the release of pressure and praise is enough to keep him trying. He only wants the food reward in situations where he hasn't yet grasped the concept of what I'm asking for.

        Now if the person is just being passive until the horse performs the desired behaviour randomly and rewarding that, maybe that would be a behaviour that could only be changed by positive reward. But even that idea bothers me a bit because for any behaviour to be useful it has to be given in response to some kind of cue - so again I suppose it would depend on the cue used to get the response.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by RedHorses View Post
          Now if the person is just being passive until the horse performs the desired behaviour randomly and rewarding that, maybe that would be a behaviour that could only be changed by positive reward. But even that idea bothers me a bit because for any behaviour to be useful it has to be given in response to some kind of cue - so again I suppose it would depend on the cue used to get the response.
          This is how clicker training works. First you get the horse to offer the behavior on his own with you just standing there waiting to click and treat, and THEN you put it on a cue.


          You do this by waiting until he is offering the behavior consistently on his own (for example, a horse being trained to pick up a towel will eventually start picking the towel up over and over again for his click and carrot), and then when he is on his way down to pick it up for the nth time you start saying, "Pick it up!" right before he actually closes his teeth and lifts, and then you click and treat. Then you gradually start saying "Pick it up" when he is two feet away still, and three feet away still, and with his head fully elevated still, and seeing if you still get the response from the cue.

          Then once it is ON the cue, you move on to NEVER rewarding it when the horse offers the behavior without the cue.
          The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
          Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
          Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
          The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

          Comment


          • What if the desired behaviour is a response to pressure? Do you click before or after releasing the pressure?

            Comment


            • If my understanding is correct, you click AND release the pressure immediately when the horse gives the response. If coordination and only having two arms means you have to choose between releasing the pressure first or clicking first, my instinct would be to release the pressure first and follow with the click as soon as humanly possible, but other people may have valid reasons for doing it other ways.

              So let's say you want to teach the horse to put his head down on cue.
              You have several options to use +R, pressure/release, or a combo of the two:

              1.) You could do this with +R only, by standing there and incrementally rewarding each "effort" where the horse happens to lower his head. Then, once you have him lowering his head repeatedly, you can put it on a cue.

              2.) You can "help" with a little pressure release.
              So you stand there and apply gentle pressure on the poll and wait, the second his head goes down even a hair you release pressure and click.

              3.) You can train him to touch a target, and then lower the target, when his head goes down following the target click and treat. Then put on a cue. (So this is +R "help" as opposed to pressure release "help.")

              4.) OR you can do JUST pressure/release, where you apply the poll pressure and his only reward is the release of that pressure.

              There are many roads to Rome.

              In my experience (and I am admittedly much newer at the clicker than I am at anything else) the combo of pressure release and +R is the most effective for the most horses.
              The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
              Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
              Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
              The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

              Comment


              • Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                This is how clicker training works. First you get the horse to offer the behavior on his own with you just standing there waiting to click and treat, and THEN you put it on a cue.
                Or you can do it the way RedHorses does it, but then it's really hard to tell if the behavior was trained with -R, +R, or combination of the two.

                Insights into which it is can sometimes be had by increasing the pressure to see if you can get more. So if the pressure is a cue that was put onto a +R trained response the horse will likely give the same response to increasing pressure, because he'll interpret it as the same cue. Or he might not respond at all if he interprets it as a different cue, or punishment.

                If however, the behavior was trained with -R then increasing the pressure will usually get an increased response, because the horse knows that he needs to escape the pressure rather than just perform the trained behavior to which the cue has been associated.

                Comment

                Working...
                X