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horse forward with other riders; with owner not so much

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  • horse forward with other riders; with owner not so much

    What are some reasons that a horse would be willing and forward with accomplished/pro riders, but tends to be very "stuck" resistant with the amateur/owner? This is not a problem with the horse -- problem has existed with most horses the owner has ridden. The problem is not readily apparent when rider is observed -- reasonably balanced, quiet hands, etc.

  • #2
    Balance. IMO the horse may be taking care of the rider. Where a rider seems balanced to us, the horse is aware of subtleties we don't see.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

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    • #3
      You mentioned that the rider's hands are "quiet" but does he/she "give" when the horse responds appropriately? Say she is trying to ride the horse back to front and get it to come round, does she give when the horse does? If she doesn't then the horse might continue to be resistant.

      How much does this person ride off her seat?

      With my horse, if I were to ride with quiet, but unyielding hands, my mare would start fussing with her head. Same thing if I were to ride mostly with my hand and not so much off my seat or legs.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by champagnetaste View Post
        What are some reasons that a horse would be willing and forward with accomplished/pro riders, but tends to be very "stuck" resistant with the amateur/owner? This is not a problem with the horse -- problem has existed with most horses the owner has ridden. The problem is not readily apparent when rider is observed -- reasonably balanced, quiet hands, etc.
        It is probably a question of timing, expectation, and feel.

        The more.advanced riders EXPECT the horse to leap off the leg. They ask once, hold high expectaion for the answer, and if the answer falls short, Pop!! With the leg.

        Probably the more advancex riders ride with their leg OFf the horse more. When they give a legaid, even a tiny one, they.expect the horse to motor down the rest of the longside with no reminders. If the horse starts to slow down even a little, Pop!! with the leg to send him the rest of the way.

        Ammy owner probably uses leg too often, and when so, accepts half an answer instead of expecting a "Yes ma'am!!"
        The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
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        • #5
          Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
          Probably the more advancex riders ride with their leg OFf the horse more. When they give a legaid, even a tiny one, they.expect the horse to motor down the rest of the longside with no reminders. If the horse starts to slow down even a little, Pop!! with the leg to send him the rest of the way.

          Ammy owner probably uses leg too often, and when so, accepts half an answer instead of expecting a "Yes ma'am!!"
          yep

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          • #6
            Agree with meupatdoes and mlle.
            Donald Trump - proven liar, cheat, traitor and sexual predator! Hillary Clinton won in 2016, but we have all lost.

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            • #7
              The expectations/too much leg issue as well as a lack of "knitting the ribs" in front which correspondingly means lack of looseness in the hips, lack of give in the body overall/tension, and the mentioned lack of give in the hands.
              Originally posted by Silverbridge
              If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.

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              • #8
                Could be that the ammy/owner is too, umm shall we say clenching/tight, in the buns. Ask how I know this!

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                • #9
                  Could be owner is off-balance and horse is taking care of her.

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                  • #10
                    Not a dressage rider, but I think some riders really don't use their legs, even though they think they are. I certainly see that with my kids - the trainer is saying "more leg" but if you watch their legs you can see that they aren't *really* doing anything different. It's hard to "measure" or "describe" the amount of leg pressure someone else is using in comparison to how much you are using.

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                    • #11
                      Miss Mare tells me this in no uncertain terms! For me it is a balance issue something so subtle as looking slighlty down or the wrong direction will cause a significant change in her. I spent much of yesterdays lesson learning this from her. I Will get this but it takes time... Hmmm I can sit the trot quietly and get great movement but as soon as I start to post position changes and reins shorten . yep lots of work this winter for me!

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                      • #12
                        If rider is not following with hips, or arms or both, it will "dampen" the forward energy. She is getting what she is asking for by not following.
                        Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                        Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

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                        • #13
                          Tunnel vision as well. An ammy works on things one at a time until he/she is better at keeping all of the things in order at the same time. SO forward, supple, lateral, balance, rhythm, relaxation, all of those things are supposed to be working for you and you usually are working on one while the other goes to hell in a handbasket.

                          Forward is the most obvious and so when it suffers people notice it more easily and it is ALSO firstly important so it is made a focus.

                          Problem is you may lose forward because one of the other things has fallen by the wayside.

                          This is why lessons and help is so imperative ! lol
                          ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
                          http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

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                          • #14
                            it could be many different things....

                            balance
                            blocking
                            tight seat
                            pulling
                            low expectations

                            all the above and more are common things a rider will do as they learn.

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                            • #15
                              Chairseat will do it on many a horse. When the rider doesn't sit up and carry herself, she is very heavy on the horse's back and blocks any energy coming through.
                              "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

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                              • #16
                                I personally suffer from this problem. Others can get my horse to canter no problem but I cannot. I know it's a mental block or fear issue keeping me from giving the correct ques which stem from a riding accident earlier this year. I feel I'm ready to canter now but my horse isn't so sure.
                                Moving on doesn't mean you forget about things. It just means you have to accept what happended and continue living.

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                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Followup

                                  Originally posted by Eclectic Horseman View Post
                                  Chairseat will do it on many a horse. When the rider doesn't sit up and carry herself, she is very heavy on the horse's back and blocks any energy coming through.
                                  Thanks All! EH, can you embellish a bit on what exactly this means? I assume it means that you don't schlump with your weight coming entirely through your seat, but that you support your own weight through your seat/thighs/legs? I'm a little unclear on how you do that while being completely relaxed through the hips/thighs...

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by champagnetaste View Post
                                    Thanks All! EH, can you embellish a bit on what exactly this means? I assume it means that you don't schlump with your weight coming entirely through your seat, but that you support your own weight through your seat/thighs/legs? I'm a little unclear on how you do that while being completely relaxed through the hips/thighs...
                                    It's one of the basics of the seat most easily understood with someone showing you in person.

                                    In general, if you think you should just relax and be a sack of potatoes on the horse you are actually going to block the horse's movement. If, however, you use your core, especially your abs, correctly you are relaxed enough that you easily move with the horse. Lifting the rib cage and moving it back slightly frees the hip joints to move with the horse, taking in the horse's motion and allowing the rest of you to appear still. If you are allowing your weight down through your legs and into your feet while using your abs correctly, and have your legs turned so your inner thighs are against the saddle/toes are forward, you won't have a chair seat if your tack fits.

                                    The opposite is slumping with seatbones constantly in your horse's back. It leaves you with a horse who is sluggish and hollow through the back simply because that's what your body is telling it to do.
                                    Originally posted by Silverbridge
                                    If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.

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                                    • #19
                                      I agree with the Ammy vs Pro explanation that meupatdoes gave (using pro in an "advanced rider" way) and also the balance issue. I saw it to an extreme degree in my own mare. She is forward, light, and lovely when I ride her. With that being said, she's lazy as anything and is excellent at taking advantage of her rider if it gets her out of work. But more of a packer-type is hard to find....as long as you expect her to react and ride accordingly. I had someone come out to ride her once who could not get her to trot (she was only able to get an awkward jog).

                                      I thought to myself, "well, of course, she hasn't ridden in a long time and doesn't have the muscles." Then it occurred to me that I don't use muscles to make her go (though they, of course, help with balance)....it's more about the attitude that meupatdoes described. Pros usually "demand" where ammies often "ask." When this gal [very meekly] asked, mare said, "no thanks!" with a smile on her muzzle

                                      There are, of course, varying degrees of this, and I've seen it in much more subtle ways many times over the years.
                                      __________________________________
                                      Flying F Sport Horses
                                      Horses in the NW

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by champagnetaste View Post
                                        Thanks All! EH, can you embellish a bit on what exactly this means? I assume it means that you don't schlump with your weight coming entirely through your seat, but that you support your own weight through your seat/thighs/legs? I'm a little unclear on how you do that while being completely relaxed through the hips/thighs...



                                        Here is a pretty good random picture of "chair seat" that I pulled off another BB about the subject. Netg did a great job with the verbal discription, but a picture is worth 1,000 words, or so they say. Generally what happens in chair seat is that the knees come up in front of the rider and the rider loses the weight in her stirrups and/or the inner thigh. It is not a very secure and balanced seat, so it causes riders to get grippy with the thigh or the leg which adds to the problem by desensitizing the horse to the leg aids. In chair seat, the riders lower back is usually rounded and slumped.
                                        "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller

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