• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Californio / Vaquero / Doma Vaquera

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Californio / Vaquero / Doma Vaquera

    I thought that I'd try to split this off into a separate thread. On the Western Dressage threads there's been a lot of talk about the Californio / Vaquero / Doma Vaquera training.

    If one were interested in that type of training, at what point would a specific trainer be needed for that discipline?

    Is the progression of bitting similar to that of a "bridle horse?"

    Does anyone here have experience with that type of training?

    I thought it might be interesting to compare/contrast - kind of like the French method thread...
    Last edited by Pocket Pony; Nov. 2, 2012, 08:39 PM. Reason: deleted stupid question
    "A horse's face always conveys clearly whether it is loved by its owner or simply used." - Anja Beran

  • #2
    JMHO;
    I had schooling from Mexican Charros [California/Vaquero] while living in S.D. and I found it to be two sided just like in dressage when it came to contact.
    I have been schooled with the Spanish Spade and let me tell you there is contact unless the rider releases the reins. The finesse required to use it is "incredible" and if dressage riders could use their curbs in the same manner as the SSpade is used I do believe they would love the performances of their horses.
    I do believe the basic schooling by a master in the C/V/D would be helpful to any rider, however, one must make sure they do not connect with the roughshodding ones.

    Comment


    • #3
      Not really, they are two related but different ways of training and working cattle with your horses.
      If you want to learn one or the other, get thee to whoever is training for that one.
      They are at all not interchangeable.

      Comment


      • #4
        I would love to be educated here. It seems that the Bridle Horse is schooled to self carriage? So not worked on contact? The chains connecting the spade to the reins convey very subtle communication, supported by seat and leg aids? Is this in line with the French school of dressage? As opposed to the German school of contact through the snaffle enforced with the curb of the double at the upper levels? I've always wondered about this!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by dragonharte8 View Post
          JMHO;
          I had schooling from Mexican Charros [California/Vaquero] while living in S.D. and I found it to be two sided just like in dressage when it came to contact.
          I have been schooled with the Spanish Spade and let me tell you there is contact unless the rider releases the reins. The finesse required to use it is "incredible" and if dressage riders could use their curbs in the same manner as the SSpade is used I do believe they would love the performances of their horses.
          I do believe the basic schooling by a master in the C/V/D would be helpful to any rider, however, one must make sure they do not connect with the roughshodding ones.
          Maybe the charros you trained with were from CA and followed the CA vaquero tradition, but the mexican charros are also a bit different than the CA vaqueros in important ways.

          I do agree that some of that training can be rough and not very technical, unless you find some of today's better educated horsemen.

          The old type riders in those three different ways of riding tended to have stiff, at times easily inverted horses, unless they were very, very good, natural horsemen with a good feel for a horse.

          Today, with all the information out there, there is no excuse any more not to be aware of the more technical ways we can train, in any discipline.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Kachina View Post
            As opposed to the German school of contact through the snaffle enforced with the curb of the double at the upper levels?
            Sure there are loads of uneducated riders/trainers out there, but a GOOD german system trainer will NOT enforce contact thru the curb!

            Comment


            • #7
              There is SO much misinformation about the TRADITIONAL schooling of horses, something I think whose time has passed in most present day work of ALL schools. As little as 30 years ago ALL schools sought self carriage/whisper of aids/progressive schooling. I would say that coma vaquero comes close to the unity of dressage and vaquero riding as it used to be. To blame the winning germans/dutch/swedes for poor methods is really incorrect, blame the JUDGES which have allowed such crude training (and its results of truncated gaits and submission at all costs) for what is happening across the board of all tppes of riding (western/h/dressage/even ss).

              CA (I know I rode the top horses then) riding was very progressive from hackamore to snaffle to whisper of aids in a spade, those who use the later with both hands or crudely are plain idiots with no idea how to school a horse/collect/etc. There was no excessive NH type truncation of the neck/etc.

              I hope to become part of the new DV/equitational thrust. Perhaps DV riding will be a revival, and french methods will bring people back to lightness. But the question is always whether riders want to pose the horse/win xyz, or whether they want to learn how to progressively train.
              I.D.E.A. yoda

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by dragonharte8 View Post
                JMHO;
                I had schooling from Mexican Charros [California/Vaquero] while living in S.D. and I found it to be two sided just like in dressage when it came to contact.
                I have been schooled with the Spanish Spade and let me tell you there is contact unless the rider releases the reins. The finesse required to use it is "incredible" and if dressage riders could use their curbs in the same manner as the SSpade is used I do believe they would love the performances of their horses.
                I do believe the basic schooling by a master in the C/V/D would be helpful to any rider, however, one must make sure they do not connect with the roughshodding ones.
                um...are you serious?
                Charros in SD taught you the "Spanish spade"?
                really?

                there is not a finesse so much as the ability to control YOUR entire body the entire ride.If that is now considered "finesse" today than horsemanship is doomed.
                your head and shoulders and hips and calves and heels in the proper places
                and the weight you place in your ankle,on your seat bones, on your shoulders in you head and neck...

                I am completely annoyed that the notion of "soft hands on the mouth" is all that comes thru these discussions, with the exceptions of about 2 posters plus me who TRY to tell you over and over and over again that the mouth/face is the final focus of these things....

                used in the green horse much more with the hackmore to reinforce what you are trying to tell a baby...AND hideous looking, but over exaggerated aids diminished down to some thing better looking as he learns....smart horses learn faster,dull horses make the rider crazy

                after a year under saddle the horse "gets" it enough to become reliable.

                And after a year of riding and learning the leg and seat the body of the horse replies as a UNIT to what you are asking with the arch of the neck and the lift of his tail and the brightness of his expression....then you can add the four reins and go forward....

                Tamara
                Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                Comment


                • #9
                  [QUOTE]
                  Originally posted by Kachina View Post
                  I would love to be educated here. It seems that the Bridle Horse is schooled to self carriage? So not worked on contact? The chains connecting the spade to the reins convey very subtle communication, supported by seat and leg aids?
                  no the legs are first and the mouth last


                  Is this in line with the French school of dressage? As opposed to the German school of contact through the snaffle enforced with the curb of the double at the upper levels? I've always wondered about this!
                  the Moors brought this riding to France via N. Africa...it remained in their traditions when their military was formed in later centuries as the remaining bloodstock ( as a result of conformations) took to it better.

                  Tamara
                  Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                  I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Kachina View Post
                    I would love to be educated here. It seems that the Bridle Horse is schooled to self carriage? So not worked on contact? The chains connecting the spade to the reins convey very subtle communication, supported by seat and leg aids? Is this in line with the French school of dressage? As opposed to the German school of contact through the snaffle enforced with the curb of the double at the upper levels? I've always wondered about this!
                    Ideayoda has already answered your questions but I will add for emphasis.

                    Any dressage horse is supposed to go in self-carriage, and respond primarily to the rider's seat, body and legs. Contact is there but LIGHT.

                    Double bridle and spurs are for advanced riders who can use them very precisely.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      "Western" or "English" or "German" or "African", loose rein or a full contact ...

                      .... the only way to have good hands is, FIRST, to learn to "sit" the horse properly.

                      If the rider's "seat" cannot follow the horse's back without bouncing then there is NO WAY the hands can work INDEPENDENTLY from the seat, so they will only jab the horse in the mouth at the 'wrong time' because there is no true 'separation' of the sets of aids (rider's seat, back, legs, hands, even head). If the rider cannot separate the aids with knowledge and skill then they should not be telling the horse what to do.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yes, the only way to have good hands is:
                        Don't use them. This used to be basics not too long ago. You rode on the line until you had an independent seat and legs. You earned your reins. And you rode without reins as often as you did without stirrups.
                        And this was in hunters and jumpers.
                        If you can't turn or stop or yield your horse without your reins...you aren't really riding yet.
                        And that's all disciplines. Reins and/or a bit is the fine tuning. Only.
                        You don't get/put the horse on/into contact. You ride correctly and the horse picks up it's own contact. The horse doesn't accept the contact it's given...that's backwards.
                        And yes, in all disciplines it's the judging farking it up. But to a degree it's also the riders and trainers for not giving the judges anything correct to judge in the first place. In subjective sports...the judging has too much to do with opinion.
                        You jump in the saddle,
                        Hold onto the bridle!
                        Jump in the line!
                        ...Belefonte

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
                          I hope to become part of the new DV/equitational thrust. Perhaps DV riding will be a revival, and french methods will bring people back to lightness. But the question is always whether riders want to pose the horse/win xyz, or whether they want to learn how to progressively train.
                          I want to learn to train progressively! {jumps up and down waving hands} ideayoda, I want to go to your school.

                          I don't know why but I find myself lately very intrigued by DV and the garrocha and lightness and harmony. Maybe it is because when I look at those DV horses I see more of similarity to my horse than I do when looking at a fancy warmbloods. And I want to work some more cows, too!
                          "A horse's face always conveys clearly whether it is loved by its owner or simply used." - Anja Beran

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Oh, and if one did want to get involved with DV - how would one find a trainer? Is there an association? So far in poking around I found someone on So. Cal who has put out a DVD on garrocha and history, training progression, ground exercises (for the rider to practice), etc.
                            "A horse's face always conveys clearly whether it is loved by its owner or simply used." - Anja Beran

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The U.S. Cavalry traing system was based on a progression, for both horse and rider. And, AND, they took into account that most riders were green recruits. Some had never seen a horse before !!!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I know there is at least one place in CA that still sticks fairly close to the tradition. I ordered some tack from them. And, I can't remember who they were.

                                Google hand made Bosals and you will eventually find them. They have a ranch and they teach I believe, or they are closely connected to some who do.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  there are any number of videos in the German available.There are those over there who are quite taken with the sports and the training
                                  Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                                  I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Pocket Pony View Post
                                    Oh, and if one did want to get involved with DV - how would one find a trainer? Is there an association? So far in poking around I found someone on So. Cal who has put out a DVD on garrocha and history, training progression, ground exercises (for the rider to practice), etc.
                                    Why don't you contact this guy?
                                    http://www.johnsaintryan.com/index.html

                                    Looks like he does clinics in this area. He might be able to recommend others.
                                    On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I very much disagree that to have good hands is not to use them. Of course to use ANY aid the seat has to be in balance and to be INDEPENDENTLY BALANCED (w/o holding onto the mouth for balance). No the hands are not used as tight/held firsts, nor ever backward nor to saw the horse into longitudinal flexion w/o any consideration for lateral flexibity. But the education of the horse to opening/bearing(neck)/indirect reins are just that, part of the education. The hands can (should) be able to be used by turning the thumb to the outside (a kind of lifting w/o lifting)/horizontally/ and vertically. The horse should be able to be asked to meet the hand and change balance and/or mobilize the jaw and/or to go fdo. Those ARE actions of the hand, CONCISE and CALCULATED. Just as there are actions of the leg (preferably the calf with the heel down), or the (minutely) posterior tilting of the pelvis.

                                      I do agree about the 'farking it up'. As a judge I am embarassed about how the judging (across the board of all disciplines) has been lowered to 'encourage' riders rather than PROTECT the horses and make people learn HOW TO TRAIN.
                                      I.D.E.A. yoda

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        As a judge I am embarassed about how the judging (across the board of all disciplines) has been lowered to 'encourage' riders rather than PROTECT the horses and make people learn HOW TO TRAIN.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X