• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Western dressage??? Really???

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by mrs.smith View Post
    He bases his training on classical dressage techniques (mostly Baucher) and knowing where the horses feet are for the timing of the cues. His book, "If I Were to Train a Horse" is excellent (http://www.jackbr
    "Knowing where the feet are" is (again) a pretty basic need for the rider. This is NOT a particular tenet of a particular school of riding. How the heck can someone give an effective aide if they give it at a time when the horse can't respond? Knowing where the feet are at all times is NOT optional for any kind of real horsemanship.

    This is BASIC HORSEMANSHIP boys & girls!! It's not reining, or dressage or cutting or western dressage. It's BASIC Pony Club stuff...

    And while Brainard sounds like a fine old style horseman, he's not the only guy alive who "promotes" this type of riding. Dennis Reis, Buck Brannaman, Craig Cameron, Peter Campbell, this list goes on and on and on...

    But none of these guys are out promoting a new sport -- instead, they are promoting GOOD RIDING.

    In my opinion Jack's efforts would be better served if he turned his efforts to AQHA and their weird, freaky WP classes.

    Here is my take: if you want to study TRUE old-style, vacquro-type horsemanship, study under any of the folks I've listed. They do NOT promote short-cuts or dumbing down, which is what USDF Intro & WD is all about IMHO. Start investigating "Californio" style riding/training. They have an annual show BTW.

    If you want something different and lighter and more harmonious in English style riding, study the French school of dressage.

    If you want to compete in 'modern' dressage, study under the currrent Dutch & German trainers (or even Carl).

    If you want to get ribbons & pretty cups, try Intro or WD...

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
      "Dennis Reis,
      really?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by mbm View Post
        really?
        Doyou not agree? I've just seen some of his videos and he looks very competent to me...

        Now, for those who REALLY want to see "western" riders do "dressage" take alook at these guys:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47um6...eature=fvwrelo

        This is who should be teaching "western dressage." Those folks on the video are just rather sorry...

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
          Doyou not agree?
          no.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by mbm View Post
            no.
            Well, to each their own. Personally, BB will always be the most elegant "western dressage" rider I know of. End of discussion (MHO)

            Again, here is a example of REAL "western dressage"
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOVyk...feature=g-vrec

            It's one way to make sure your 20m circles are really round...

            Comment


            • Now THIS is western dressage!

              Sorry, getting carried away with this WD thing, but this vid blew me away:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9Y1F_f87F0

              I was watching it for a whole minute before I realized the rider never even touches the reins!! They are tied to the pommel. So all of this is being done with seat & leg.

              If this isn't proof you do NOT need a choke hold on your horse's face to have a fluid and accurate "conversation" with
              them, I don't know what would be...

              Mr. Brainard should just ditch those silly WD classes and show folks this video and tell them "learn to ride like this!!"

              Of course, you'd lose 95% of those interested, because it takes a long time and alot of dedication to learn to ride like this, but hey...it's either real horsemanship or it's BS.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bethe Mounce View Post
                And then there is the semantics...a western snaffle has a curb chain, a western curb has a curb chain...to me, they are one and the same bit...one is jointed, one is not, but both have the curb chain. A snaffle is an O ring, D ring, full cheek etc...it has NO curb chain. At least to me that is how it is.

                Yes, a shanked snaffle/tom thumb will have a curb chain or strap, but IME, I've never known a western trainer who considered that a true snaffle. Every western trainer I've known considers a snaffle to be a D-ring, O-ring, eggbutt, or offset/western D-ring. They do use a bit hobble, all leather, no chain, and no curb action. All it does is work like a full cheek snaffle, it provides some added pressure to the side of the jaw, prevents the bit from sliding through the mouth, and stabilizes the bit.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
                  Sorry, getting carried away with this WD thing, but this vid blew me away:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9Y1F_f87F0

                  I was watching it for a whole minute before I realized the rider never even touches the reins!! They are tied to the pommel. So all of this is being done with seat & leg.

                  If this isn't proof you do NOT need a choke hold on your horse's face to have a fluid and accurate "conversation" with
                  them, I don't know what would be...

                  Mr. Brainard should just ditch those silly WD classes and show folks this video and tell them "learn to ride like this!!"

                  Of course, you'd lose 95% of those interested, because it takes a long time and alot of dedication to learn to ride like this, but hey...it's either real horsemanship or it's BS.
                  I'm totally interested in garrocha these days, so I appreciate seeing a video. However, I'm not a fan of how this horse's reins are. IMHO, the reins are too short and there isn't enough slack with the curb to say that this horse is in self-carriage. Yes, the rider isn't touching the reins, and yes, the horse is working off seat and leg - bravo for that. But there is too much flexion from the curb rein for my liking - this horse has no other options with his head and neck and looks force in this position.
                  My Mustang Adventures - Mac, my mustang | Annwylid D'Lite - my Cob filly

                  "A horse's face always conveys clearly whether it is loved by its owner or simply used." - Anja Beran

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Pocket Pony View Post
                    I'm totally interested in garrocha these days, so I appreciate seeing a video. However, I'm not a fan of how this horse's reins are. IMHO, the reins are too short and there isn't enough slack with the curb to say that this horse is in self-carriage. Yes, the rider isn't touching the reins, and yes, the horse is working off seat and leg - bravo for that. But there is too much flexion from the curb rein for my liking - this horse has no other options with his head and neck and looks force in this position.
                    He has as much or more freedom in his head position than 90% of the horses being ridden in the dressage ring today. Those riders have the curb engaged almost the entire time. If you will look at the angle of the curb shank and the horse's mouth you will see #1) the curb is in a neutral position MOST of the time and #2) the horse's mouth remains closed, unlike what you see in most GP rings. This is a sign of relaxation. In the end of the exhibit, the horse is galloping much faster than any GP horse is asked to move and manages to do so just fine in such a head set. So I don't see this horse unduly restrained at all.

                    But on COTH you could post a video of the Second Coming and someone would complain the cloud Jesus was on is the wrong color...

                    I think much of what you are seeing is more a factor of this horse's natural conformation and shorter, stockier neck.

                    Comment


                    • Ahh, thanks Kyzteke for the garrocha video. I was looking for it.
                      A well "dressed" horse indeed (and the rider, too). I forget to breath watching those two. To me, it looks like the reins are run through a metal bracket on the pommel and then around the rider's waist. ? Pause at :24-:26.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
                        He has as much or more freedom in his head position than 90% of the horses being ridden in the dressage ring today. Those riders have the curb engaged almost the entire time. If you will look at the angle of the curb shank and the horse's mouth you will see #1) the curb is in a neutral position MOST of the time and #2) the horse's mouth remains closed, unlike what you see in most GP rings. This is a sign of relaxation. In the end of the exhibit, the horse is galloping much faster than any GP horse is asked to move and manages to do so just fine in such a head set. So I don't see this horse unduly restrained at all.
                        1. I don' t see that at all. The shanks are more like engaged at 45-90 degree at all time. The shanks in neutral position should be parallel to the mouth, where?

                        2. or a sign of a tight curb chain. The rider has a constant contact with the bit so the horse is not disturbed by much interventions, that is probably the reason why he is not opening its mouth.

                        Don't get me wrong, I truly enjoyed the video, it is a really well trained horse but this as nothing to do with what is being asked in dressage and cannot be compared.

                        What is the point of your comment about going faster than any GP horse at the canter? GP horse aren't asked to go faster. And they actually have to let the horse extend its neck/frame while performing the extended canter. It is extended canter, not fast gallop.

                        But on COTH you could post a video of the Second Coming and someone would complain the cloud Jesus was on is the wrong color...
                        This horse is doing a great garrocha demonstration.
                        But this ride wouldn't stand long in a dressage ring.
                        And not because the horse/rider aren't able but because what we are looking for in a good garrocha horse is not the same as a dressage horse.
                        Short strides/a bit choppy, rushing in the gaits, impured gaits, lots of unclean changes. Not at all time of course, but enough for any horse to receive a pretty low score in dressage where in a garrocha performance, where there is no judges, it doesn't really matter. (it will probably be worked out in training sessions after or not even)

                        I think much of what you are seeing is more a factor of this horse's natural conformation and shorter, stockier neck.
                        Yes that is true. That is also a reason why you don't see that much PRE or Lusitano in dressage competitions. We do see them more often now and it is because the breeding programs are leaning toward dressage more.

                        I'm glad there are people who want to preserve the breeds by breeding and training them in their traditional ways. It would truly be a shame if all horses were to move or be ridden the same.
                        ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

                        Originally posted by LauraKY
                        I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
                        HORSING mobile training app

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
                          Sorry, getting carried away with this WD thing, but this vid blew me away:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9Y1F_f87F0

                          I was watching it for a whole minute before I realized the rider never even touches the reins!! They are tied to the pommel. So all of this is being done with seat & leg.

                          .
                          thank you K. THIS was the video I looked like for about an hour.
                          This is a horse ridden with the seat and body and the mouth is in the place it should be...last.
                          And this separates the Moorish seat from all others. And always will.

                          Tamara
                          Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                          I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                          Comment


                          • the video of the Garrocha horse is NOT off the seat alone... the reins are tied to the riders waist - and they are tied *short* that horse is no more off the seat and in self carriage than any other cranked in horse.

                            i will admit it is an interesting video - but that is NOT what i would want to see in western work!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
                              Sorry, getting carried away with this WD thing, but this vid blew me away:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9Y1F_f87F0

                              I was watching it for a whole minute before I realized the rider never even touches the reins!! They are tied to the pommel. So all of this is being done with seat & leg.

                              If this isn't proof you do NOT need a choke hold on your horse's face to have a fluid and accurate "conversation" with
                              them, I don't know what would be...

                              Mr. Brainard should just ditch those silly WD classes and show folks this video and tell them "learn to ride like this!!"

                              Of course, you'd lose 95% of those interested, because it takes a long time and alot of dedication to learn to ride like this, but hey...it's either real horsemanship or it's BS.
                              In this case the pommel has a strangle hold on the horse's face. Not impressed. The horse's chin is on his chest for chris' sake.

                              Comment


                              • fwiw, the reins are not tied to the pommel but instead to the riders waist - therefore he has huge leverage and uses it.

                                Comment


                                • Either way, the pommel would also provide huge leverage.

                                  Also the horse is taking tense, uneven steps, because he is of course not through...

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
                                    Also the horse is taking tense, uneven steps, because he is of course not through...
                                    I think this is more about the precisio and training. Wouldn't want a relaxed big striding horse while wielding that stick.

                                    Comment


                                    • Why not? Is there an advantage to riding a tense uneven-striding horse while wielding a big stick? The horse isn't showing a true collected walk.

                                      In any case the riding is not comparable to good dressage riding.

                                      Comment


                                      • [QUOTE=grayarabpony;6647523]Why not? Is there an advantage to riding a tense uneven-striding horse while wielding a big stick? The horse isn't showing a true collected walk.

                                        In any case the riding is not comparable to good dressage riding.[/QUOTE

                                        I doubt the cow punches who originated this kind of riding were interested in reading the FEI rules.

                                        Comment


                                        • So? The video was posted as an example of what western dressage should be striving for.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X