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Nose to Wall Leg Yield

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  • Nose to Wall Leg Yield

    Let me start by saying that I have a well qualified dressage trainer...but I only take about 1 lesson a month.

    Can someone walk me through the aids for nose to wall leg yield, how much angle, how it should feel, etc?

    I am slowly starting to incorporate more lateral work with my mare. She is the type that as soon as you add some pressure with either leg or hand she gets tense and tries to leave

    We are working on tempo and cadence mostly at the trot and her accepting half halts and slowing down. She seems to go better working on slow and balanced before pushing the forward instead of the other way around.

    We've been working on leg yields at the walk and trot down the long side, and focusing on a few steps of leg yield, few steps of straight, few steps of leg yield. I am trying to use mostly weight and seat otherwise the mare ends up blowing through my aids and running down the long side if I add leg.

    Last night I started working on a little nose to the wall leg yield at the walk only, and for the first time the response was: "Okay, let me try to figure this out" Instead of the usual "here's a big fat middle finger, now please don't make me find my butt!!"

    That in itself is HUGE Anyway, I approached my leg yield by cutting off the second corner of the short end and approaching the long side on a diagonal and then tried to keep that angle using my outside leg and then catching with inside rein and leg. In this case, we are traveling left so I asked for the hind end to move over with my right leg, and caught the shoulder with the left rein/thigh. Wouldn't you know, the maresie didn't try to run down the long side and actually moved her butt over without the shoulders getting all wonky?!?

    So, can someone please explain the correct way to do this? Right now we are still at the stage of "you need to move your feet where/when I say to", but I do want to work on the correct aids as well.

    On another note, I am so pleased that this mare is starting to become a "tryer" and you can almost see the little wheels cranking away

  • #2
    A good way to introduce it is to ride a 10m half turn at the end of the long side and then head back to E/B on a straight line. There's your angle. When you reach the wall, keep the horse on the same line/angle/straightness it was, and bring the whole line, ears to tail, up the wall.

    When you can keep the same line through the horse's body up the wall, and add a leeetle bit of flexion INTO the direction you're going, by George, you've got it!
    The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
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    • #3
      I wasn't always a Smurf
      Penmerryl Sophie RIDSH
      "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
      The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.


      • #4
        My own personal experience is this

        Since the wall is there to aid you and so you should need LESS hand and more leg.

        If you lose forward go straight again immediately because the wall shouldnt stop him and your bend should be suppling allowing the legs to move through.

        I would only do a few steps at a time for now

        Good luck!
        ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~


        • #5
          Well, for someone who claims to just learn lateral works, you surely are doing this exercise rather correctly. so just keep doing what you are doing, and you should be fine. Focus on inside leg and outside aids like what you are doing, with minimum inside rein, making sure the horse is not over-bending her neck, and get a feel of what your mare is like so you can translate that same feeling to normal leg yield. and Oh and the angle to the wall should not exceed 45 degree.


          • #6
            IF you read the usef rules the angle is about 35 degrees. That said, it should be less at the beginning. A few steps/straight/restart. The horse should be straight through the body with slight flexion at the atlas/poll. You ALWAYS look where the horse looks (at the wall), and the energy should be kept.

            However when starting it there may be more flexion/bend to start then PULSING the leg (as the belly swings away). Keeping a steady tempo (a greener horse will not have cadenced (articulated rhythm) per se. And although speed IS the enemy of impulsion (and puts the horse onto the forehand), the horse cannot go slower.

            Ideally LY is mostly at walk, and once the horse learns to move from the leg (head to the wall), move on to shoulder fore and shoulder in. Remember that in trot LY there is a danger of hitting legs (because there is no bend). LY does have a down side, and although it may be suppling it is not engaging/collecting.
            IF the horse is blowing through (the outside aids I presume you mean), then HALT the horse from the outside aids IN LY. Very simple. IF the horse is stopping/hollowing/etc then look to your aids: are you pulsing the leg or just pushing w/o cessation? Are you allowing the horse to move into (almost through) the outside aids or are you holding (inside or outside)? It is a play between the inside aids and the outside/receiving ones/

            If nothing else works, start a turn on the forehand (bend horse then touch with leg), then proceed in LY. Finish the toF after 5-10 strides, then walk forward/change flexion, rinse, repeat.

            A teacher should explain this and use some of these ideas.

            Also, once you can do this, do the LY from the 3/4 line to the wall.
            I.D.E.A. yoda


            • #7
              There is a huge difference between training and showing. The ideal angel is 35 degree, while during training you need to either increase or decrease the angle depending on what your horse is doing. That is the process of learning. Don't get too hung up with an "idea" while you are training. The reason for 45 degree is it is the greatest angle the horse can sustain.


              • #8
                This is one way that helped me teach my mare to not rush away from my leg pressure and move away from it. Combined with that and turn on haunches and forward, it came together wonderfully.
                She is still learning but after a 'stuck' moment she relaxes and 'thinks' about what we did before and it then clicks.

                The wall is great for stalling the forward so if the horse tries to rush away normally and make you take rein to bring them back, they cant use that evasion here.

                I start out of a corner going on the long side.
                I halt facing straight down the long side. Do a turn on the forhand until you are facing the wall, then, (Say left rein). Slight pressure with both reins to say "stay put", left rein resting on side of neck to help keep neck straight, body opening slightly towards the direction of travel keeping seat centered, left thigh and leg 'set' so that there is no pressure from the left leg or thigh but the position is unyielding in case the horse tries to pop the shoulder, right leg comes behind the girth slightly and I pulse the pressure from my calf to encourage the movement..... later on using only light consistent pressure until you get a yield then release..

                My mare smacked her face several times and did little dance at first but once they get it, they almost seem to learn to 'pause and think', instead of rushing through or away from an aid.

                (The small turn on the forhand sets the idea of moving haunches over)

                Good luck.


                • Original Poster

                  I'm loving the idea to HALT when the mare blows through the aids. I'll try to start from a TOF as well and then go into LY down the wall.

                  We are also starting some shoulder fore/shoulder in....but those shoulders are the death of me every time! We're only doing a few steps and then straightening again. My idea is to only ask for as long as I think the mare can hold the angle and then straighten before I end up with a rushing horse with crazy shoulders. Its also possible that I'm asking for too much angle in the SI. Will have to run that by the trainer.


                  Oh and Gloria - I've done a fair amount of the lower level lateral work (LY 3/4 line to wall, and SI), however its been awhile...and never on a horse that is so darn squirrelly and sensitive I'm in need of some hand holding!


                  • #10
                    She needs to get used to the leg like yesterday. This whole operation needs to go to ground zero and resolve that first.
                    Turn on the forehand, aiding with the whip where your leg would be, then leg yielding in hand with same whip aides. She has to learn to calmly accept and give the desired response first.
                    Then repeat the exercises mounted. Have an experienced ground person handy to fill in gaps.
                    I appreciate the thought to take the Ly to the wall to help get the point across, but judging by your post, you've got cracks in your foundation lower than that exercise can fix. If you attempt the wall Ly exercise without fixing these things you'll just teach her to bulge through the shoulder
                    chaque pas est fait ensemble


                    • #11
                      When you start LY on the diagonal, again do LY and STOP (parallel to the wall) at any point when the horse tends to hurry. Or do stair steps, sideways/straight ahead/sideways/straight/etc.

                      Why would one do a turn on the haunches in regard to LY??? dont get that idea...explain.
                      I.D.E.A. yoda


                      • #12
                        Turn on the haunches/fore is all about being able to control the shoulder and the haunches.
                        If your horse can recognize both aids, you can instantly correct if you get a bit of shoulder bulge by asking that the shoulder move back to straight or if your haunches are left behind etc.


                        • #13
                          But a horse which cannot easily do a toF, or more especially a shoulder fore/in (which they are just starting) imho cannot be asked to move the shoulders or activate the hindlegs on a meter sized spot. And is the horse going to be true/correctly flexed, or will it end up counter positioned if that is the case?
                          I.D.E.A. yoda


                          • #14
                            TOF/TOH should be one of the first things a youngster learns after they learn the basics of foreward/halt/turning.

                            Unless I am missing something, there is nothing that the OP has posted that states she has not taught the horse TOF/TOH.

                            My mare can easily do both, this leads to the teachings of haunches in and shoulder fore/in. Haunches in is simple for her, yet shoulder in is a little trickier.
                            Shoulder fore/in can be quite a difficult concept for a horse to grasp especially when keeping the forward motion.

                            There is no specific order in this case to what should be learned before another is taught. Not counting TOF/TOH, which must be primary imo.

                            The degree of flexion may have to be adjusted by the rider. It is impossible to tell unless we were to see firsthand how the horse is flexed.
                            I taught my mare to stay straight in the body and neck in my TOF/TOH. Mind you I could ask for some bend and she will do it but I want that to be my decision.


                            • #15
                              FOr me it has been the other way round. Sf (and later si) are taught after etc. And since toH is a collecting exercises I do not teach it. For me it is the traditional first mobilizing the shoulders (sf/si/r) while moving and later the quarters (t). Since a toF is a variety of sf/si (in hand first). The exception is VERY briefly using head to the wall LY, and then moving on (because there is no bending, and it has a down side to engagement).

                              For the OP, one starts with shoulder fore (the first step onto a 20m circle ridden straight ahead. 2 1/2 tracks (you can see inside hind between forelegs), progresses to 3 tracks (the first step onto a 10m circle (inside hind hidden behind outside fore). The greater the bending the more axial rotation/engagement. IF you are using too much inside rein the horse will bend the neck only, if you are using too much outside there will not be enough bend/horse will be too straight through the body/it will slow down. Remember this is an exercise of reaction to inside leg (closed/pulsing near the girth) to outside rein. Take the first step onto the circle/and go down track. (And the final si is a stop onto a 6m volte (and is on 4 tracks).)
                              I.D.E.A. yoda


                              • #16
                                Depends as usual.

                                I know a couple of horses the actual TOF was very difficult. You really shouldnt let the horses walk and the more traditional trainers from overseas would actually rather see a horse take a step back like a rein back and approach again. So once I learned it that way I had to realize it was actually a very advanced movement and most will get very stressed out one way so a few steps and move on at first.

                                Same with TOH because really they should be done walk piro to start right?

                                If they are off the aids or behind or lazy or to tense then they just do it very westerny and it is easy, but once they have to do it in a sorta march between very close aids I think its actually as hard as the hardest of collection for them to relax and react correctly.

                                It takes immense discipline to work them without breaking it and making it a cue thing.

                                Its actually what the french system is supposed to address but everytime I try to read that thread it has gone into la la land of dreams and butterflys LOL

                                There is a very practical portion of it that is really helpful but it is MORE advanced than an intro rider should use and I make sure my trainer is there for much of it to make sure they are correct and the horse is still collected.
                                ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~


                                • #17
                                  The basis of a toF is easy, if nothing else in a halter just bend the horse and walk the other way, hindquarters come around. Then do the same thing while pulsing with a finger (near the girth area). Then refine it undersaddle w/o excessive bend. All horses will do it when it is presented methodically.
                                  I.D.E.A. yoda


                                  • #18
                                    I am not talking about doing them in a halter obviously.

                                    I am speaking about when you refine them to the point where the horse is on the aids and forward thinking without walking through even a step. No gapping reins or using the head or overbennding or walking through the outside shoulder.

                                    To my own experience its as easy as a very correct halt on the aids and staying in attention which is not easy for a green horse either.

                                    I would say it is at least an intermediate movement if done with all of the ellements.
                                    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~


                                    • Original Poster

                                      Can you come to my house? Just kidding...

                                      You are dead on in going back to basics.

                                      Yes, this mare has holes. She does not lunge well (working on it!), was a barrel racer in earlier years, and has some not so great training. However, we have been succesfull at LY and TOF/TOH on the ground. TOH under saddle is good, TOF is usually good.

                                      We are finally achieving a few steps of LY and SI/SF without going *%&$ARGH LALALA ICAN'THEARYOU from the saddle. So there is a ton of improvement, but still some moments of ugliness. Thanks for the reminder...we'll be revisiting the groundwork.

                                      Originally posted by Petstorejunkie View Post
                                      She needs to get used to the leg like yesterday. This whole operation needs to go to ground zero and resolve that first.
                                      Turn on the forehand, aiding with the whip where your leg would be, then leg yielding in hand with same whip aides. She has to learn to calmly accept and give the desired response first.
                                      Then repeat the exercises mounted. Have an experienced ground person handy to fill in gaps.
                                      I appreciate the thought to take the Ly to the wall to help get the point across, but judging by your post, you've got cracks in your foundation lower than that exercise can fix. If you attempt the wall Ly exercise without fixing these things you'll just teach her to bulge through the shoulder


                                      • #20
                                        I've sent you a PM
                                        chaque pas est fait ensemble