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Bad form or being conservative?

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  • Bad form or being conservative?

    I find myself buffled and to be honest troubled by this scenario so I am here, instead of working, posting to see what other posters think...

    Let me first pre-phase that I understand it is perfectly legal. That is not the problem. What I am trying to gather is, whether it is something you in your good moral standard will do....

    Say, last year (2011), one pair had a successful year showing First Level (winning, though the scores are unknown to me) (edit: winning at various rated shows in their country, but not National held in US).

    This year (2012), the same pair also had a successful year showing First Level and Second Level. The pair won quite a few at First Level and at least one Second Level score was 63% and above.

    So to me this pair is becoming solid on Second and First Level is no more challenge for the horse this show season.

    Will you, then, after getting 70% and above at rated show at First Level and respectful Second Level scores, attempt to show at Training Level at the National (breed show) just so you can collect one more National title?

    Please note that I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm a mere bystander. I know what I will and will not do, but I'm curious what others think. I'm also curious whether there are any motives other than another national title...
    Last edited by Gloria; Oct. 9, 2012, 05:10 PM.

  • #2
    Personally I would not show at Training if I have won at First and Second. But I have very little interest in winning ribbons just for the ribbons sake. A national title would be nice, but I would try to win it at First rather than Training.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by eventerchick517 View Post
      Personally I would not show at Training if I have won at First and Second. But I have very little interest in winning ribbons just for the ribbons sake. A national title would be nice, but I would try to win it at First rather than Training.
      Agree 100%
      You have to have experiences to gain experience.

      1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

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      • #4
        How do qualifications work? Was the horse only able to qualify in training? If so, makes sense that's where they competed. I know a lot of people compete at their two highest qualification levels, for example, at Arab sporthorse nationals.

        Without knowing the situation, I wouldn't judge. However, just from the way the OP described it I would question....
        If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
        -meupatdoes

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        • #5
          Above, my question also. Some associations work differently
          Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

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          • Original Poster

            #6
            Originally posted by netg View Post
            How do qualifications work? Was the horse only able to qualify in training? If so, makes sense that's where they competed. I know a lot of people compete at their two highest qualification levels, for example, at Arab sporthorse nationals.
            That pair is qualified to compete at both Training and First so they actually competed at both at National and winning both titles (70%+ for all scores). They did not enter 2nd level.
            Last edited by Gloria; Oct. 9, 2012, 05:09 PM.

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            • #7
              I believe we have some very people on here who have done the same thing - buying an equine who has experience at a higher level (rider being an UL rider), and showing a couple levels below the equine's experience in order to win the championships. Poor form, I say.
              "A horse's face always conveys clearly whether it is loved by its owner or simply used." - Anja Beran

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              • #8
                Im afraid I see it happening all to often--becomes even more noticeable at Championships. Ive also seen quite a number of
                fresh 'imports' competing at the lower levels who are quite obviously not in an appropriate frame for competing at Training-First but who win with scores exceeding 70%....sigh. If you are scoring 70% plus---don't ya think its time to move up?
                Redbud Ranch
                Check us out on FB

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                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Normally I'm all for people who ride hard and train hard and pull up a great score like 70%+ at any level, but this pair really took me aback. I mean, what is the glory of getting your 2nd level horse win at training level? Scratching head...

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                  • #10
                    I have seen it over and over and over again in the breed organization that I am associated with. Don't like it. But it is legal. That organization used to have rules that you had to compete in the highest levels in which you qualified. Not true anymore.

                    You just have to do what you can live with and let those who want to chase ribbons, chase ribbons.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by goodpony View Post
                      Im afraid I see it happening all to often--becomes even more noticeable at Championships. Ive also seen quite a number of
                      fresh 'imports' competing at the lower levels who are quite obviously not in an appropriate frame for competing at Training-First but who win with scores exceeding 70%....sigh. If you are scoring 70% plus---don't ya think its time to move up?
                      I have no dog in this fight, but the standards are changing for the really nice rides at especially the lower levels. 70% is no longer good enough to come close to being at the top of the USDF standings at Training level. The current median score for the highest average is above 80% this year at Training. I think I saw that the First level preliminary score winner had a median of 76%.

                      So I guess it is all what you (the individual) puts as their priority. People pay a lot of money to show, so some of them are saving their dollars until they can take out a horse and have it get 70%+ at a level vs 60% at the next level up. I personally do not have a problem with that, as it is there money and they can choose how to spend it.

                      And anyway, even at GP, the winning scores in international competition are easily above 70% too.
                      Kris
                      www.edgewoodmeadowfarm.com
                      Like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/edgewoodmeadowfarm

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                      • #12
                        The current median score for the highest average is above 80% this year at Training. I think I saw that the First level preliminary score winner had a median of 76%.
                        Im sorry but THAT is ridiculous.....pfffffft. Might as well make Training Level a Career, Eh?
                        Redbud Ranch
                        Check us out on FB

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                        • #13
                          Sandbaggers! We have several fitting that description on the Arabian circuit! I think all they care about is a win picture with the rose garland

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                          • #14
                            LOL.. I thought the OP WAS talking about the Arabs !

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                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Edgewood View Post
                              I have no dog in this fight, but the standards are changing for the really nice rides at especially the lower levels. 70% is no longer good enough to come close to being at the top of the USDF standings at Training level. The current median score for the highest average is above 80% this year at Training. I think I saw that the First level preliminary score winner had a median of 76%.
                              Edgewood, I have known some very nice horses and very competent riders getting, say, 70% at first level. They are truly working on First Level (showing 1st and schooling 2nd/3rd) and they nailed that test. With a bit fine tuning it is conceivable they will get high 70%. I say they deserve every bit of that win at First Level, fair and square.

                              However, consider another scenario, where another horse whose current state is at, say, 3rd level (showing actively at 3rd level, schooling 4th), but drop to 1st level at Regional to win. Or in my example, where a horse confirmed at 2nd level or at least an easy walk on 1st level but drop to training to win. Do you still stand by your statement? Do you still think this is a "fair" win? I know it is "fair" in theory and laws as they aren't utilizing illegal methods, but is it really "fair" in a sport spirit?

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Mardi View Post
                                LOL.. I thought the OP WAS talking about the Arabs !
                                Not Arabs, but another breed. I hesitate to say which breed show because it will be way too obvious which pair I am talking about. I'm trying to keep a bit, umm, anonymous here

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  i have no dog in this fight because right now i am not showing accredited shows....

                                  however, just to give a couple examples: i was at a schooling show a couple weekends ago and there were a couple *fantastic* young horses there...... they showed T 1 & 2 i think because the horses are babies..... but they blew the socks off of all competition scoring in the high 70s....

                                  so what should these riders do? show the appropriate level for where their horses are, get the miles they need and have every right to get or instead show at a higher level just because they have innate talent coming out their wazoos? also fwiw they were ammies showing them....

                                  i think that you cant have it both ways - you either support qualifications - which also would entail forced moving up, or you dont - but it you dont how can you complain about where people "choose to spend their money"?

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    MBM, no. You are really missing my point. Did you even read my, or anyone's posts? I'm not complaining about how people spend their money, nor do I believe in "forced" qualification on the level shown based on scores. That is not the point.

                                    In your example, a young horse lacking miles is appropriate at the low level to get experience. They showed at their appropriate level. They blow the competition away by winning fair and square.

                                    Just because a horse is talented does not automatically mean that said horse is an upper level horse, you know.

                                    That is NOT the scenario I'm talking about here: I'm talking about a horse clearly way above the level (remember I'm talking about a mature seasoned dressage horse) who purposely drops down to get ribbons.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by mbm View Post
                                      i have no dog in this fight because right now i am not showing accredited shows....

                                      however, just to give a couple examples: i was at a schooling show a couple weekends ago and there were a couple *fantastic* young horses there...... they showed T 1 & 2 i think because the horses are babies..... but they blew the socks off of all competition scoring in the high 70s....

                                      so what should these riders do? show the appropriate level for where their horses are, get the miles they need and have every right to get or instead show at a higher level just because they have innate talent coming out their wazoos? also fwiw they were ammies showing them....

                                      i think that you cant have it both ways - you either support qualifications - which also would entail forced moving up, or you dont - but it you dont how can you complain about where people "choose to spend their money"?
                                      Originally posted by Gloria View Post
                                      Edgewood, I have known some very nice horses and very competent riders getting, say, 70% at first level. They are truly working on First Level (showing 1st and schooling 2nd/3rd) and they nailed that test. With a bit fine tuning it is conceivable they will get high 70%. I say they deserve every bit of that win at First Level, fair and square.

                                      However, consider another scenario, where another horse whose current state is at, say, 3rd level (showing actively at 3rd level, schooling 4th), but drop to 1st level at Regional to win. Or in my example, where a horse confirmed at 2nd level or at least an easy walk on 1st level but drop to training to win. Do you still stand by your statement? Do you still think this is a "fair" win? I know it is "fair" in theory and laws as they aren't utilizing illegal methods, but is it really "fair" in a sport spirit?
                                      I think that mbm summarized it quite well. I guess you could put qualification limits that the horse could not have shown 2 levels above the current level with qualifying scores (eg, receiving 65% at 3rd and then dropping back to Training).

                                      But you do have to be careful, as there are some really fabulous young horses these days that can easily go out and pull in huge scores, even though they are green. So if you put rules in place, you have to make sure that they are not going to unfairly target some of these really nice young horses that need mileage. I personally know of a gelding who is 4 years old and has a median score of almost 75% at Training. He is showing the age appropriate class, and doing very well.

                                      And well, if it is within the rules, it is fair in my book. If you really feel strongly, maybe get a petition together and approach USDF (or whatever breed association you are talking about) about putting in rules about dropping down 2 (or however many) levels if you already got qualifying scores.
                                      Kris
                                      www.edgewoodmeadowfarm.com
                                      Like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/edgewoodmeadowfarm

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                                      • #20
                                        Ask yourself this question: If your median score is 80% (middle score of 8 to qualify--and you must be at least four to compete) are you not competing below your skill/ability level? Where is the the sportsmanship in that? Keeping in mind this is Training Level--not GP.
                                        Redbud Ranch
                                        Check us out on FB

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