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Horse Boy Dressage - What??

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  • #41
    Originally posted by x-halt-salute View Post
    where does the 501c3 end and the for-profit business begin? Even if this is an earnest attempt to help kids, the fuzzy boundaries between for-profit, non-profit, and even academic work is a BIG red mark against the legitimacy of their operation.
    Not for profits can charge and make money all day long and twice on Sundays as long as the activities they are a charging for are substantially related to their charitable purpose.
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    • #42
      I am hugely for horses to be used in human therapy, but I draw the line when it involves abusing the horse.

      The pix cited in post 18 (double riders, double bridle?) doesn't look good to me at all. I see flashy-ness to appeal to the parents to keep 'em coming, and I see a stressed horse ('tho realize photo is a single moment out of 1,000s) and the little girl seems... none too thrilled.

      Do you have to do fake levades for therapy? Use double bridles? Really? That sounds like exploiting the horse to hoodwink the parents.

      Am wondering if this Rupert is someone who has been on the scene for awhile in terms of autism therapy? As in, had some articles in Equus or ?? in recent years?

      I think this guy is strong on need for autism therapies and completely incompetent on the horse front. Not in the least bit safe.

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
        Not for profits can charge and make money all day long and twice on Sundays as long as the activities they are a charging for are substantially related to their charitable purpose.
        Right-o. But this Horse Boy Dressage concept, marketed to non-autistic, adult riders of "stressage" is a bit of a stretch.

        Legal? Sure. Ethical? Not in my opinion. If I make an in-kind donation to the Horse Boy Foundation because I want to help kids, is it primarily going to be used to help kids or to conduct these questionable training programs?
        Evolutionary science by day; keeping a certain red mare from winning a Darwin award the rest of the time!

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        • Original Poster

          #44
          Now I know that the logic and education is not there. Rupert wrote:
          "also, many of the airs are there to provide therapy for the horse - piaffe for week loins, passage for weak joints, levade and pesade for backs and abdomen - including sway backs - to strengthen them."

          This is part of a conversation from when I responded to a picture of the very large PRE doing a levade a few days ago. I was admittedly a bit snarky about the use of draw reins. I was corrected that these were Vienna reins and attempted to assuage Rupert. He is intent in the therapeutic nature of grand prix/haute ecole movements, and putting inexperienced riders on to do airs above ground.

          Here is the picture and related conversation:
          https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f..._t=photo_reply

          Here a quote ...
          Trying to be more productive and less snarky, I wrote this:
          This photo looks like the rider doesn't have the educated seat for airs above ground. From what I've read, it takes 8-12 years at the Spanish Riding School. If she were using draw reins she might pull the horse over. Spurs are decidedly less powerful an artificial aid, in most cases, than draw reins. My initial negative comment about draw reins not being stress free is still true. Riding inherently adds stress the horse's body physically. Yes, draw reins do add stress because through leverage they increase the influence of the rider. There are specific situations I think they can be used for a short time ... to help with a spooky horse (as top riders will do in award ceremonies), or to help a horse that comes with "issues" as in a racehorse. I would be most concerned in this case of a rather large horse with a swayback having the strength to perform airs above ground without having chronic soreness or injuring himself. Remember how long it takes for a horse to develop the musculature to do Grand Prix or high school. 10+ years!
          Then he responded (bold emphasis mine):

          jessica - fyi - why are we still talking about draw reins? there are none here. but to talk about what IS here - if you research the old masters: you always put your inexperienced students on your best horses to allow them to feel what it should feel like as they learn - piaffe, passage and airs, all controlled from the ground. steinbrecht wrote that beginner students should experience airs in the pillars before even moving onto the lunge. also, many of the airs are there to provide therapy for the horse - piaffe for week loins, passage for weak joints, levade and pesade for backs and abdomen - including sway backs - to strengthen them. reno is a case in point - his back is now so strong he is the soundest hes ever been (also a result of constant lunging and hill work as well as therapeutic dressage). you are mixing up sport dressage, which requires the utmost effort from the horse at all times - with the therapeutic, non competitve french and portuguese school which is what we practice. there is always something to learn. why not come on a course and find out?
          You hate that, don’t you? Do you like oysters? You have to acquire a taste for oysters and the deep distance.”
          -- George H. Morris on learning to love the deep distance

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          • #45
            Did any of you read the book? Pretty interesting what this couple went through to help their profoundly autistic son.

            It was a horse that finally helped them connect. Very moving story.

            [edit]
            Last edited by Moderator 1; Sep. 29, 2012, 10:41 PM.
            "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton

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            • Original Poster

              #46
              Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong View Post
              Did any of you read the book? Pretty interesting what this couple went through to help their profoundly autistic son.

              It was a horse that finally helped them connect. Very moving story.

              [edit]
              Yes, I read the book. Yes, I saw the documentary. Very nice what they did. [edit] but someone on here referenced PT Barnum. I'd also hate to think that we were the suckers born a few minutes apart.
              Last edited by Moderator 1; Sep. 29, 2012, 10:42 PM.
              You hate that, don’t you? Do you like oysters? You have to acquire a taste for oysters and the deep distance.”
              -- George H. Morris on learning to love the deep distance

              Comment


              • #47
                Rupert reminds me of the study by Kruger and Dunning: "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments"

                Basically, the study states that people who are lowest on the scale of competance for a particular activity grossly overestimate their skill and ability. This overestimation of their skills makes the incompetant person reach erroneous and false conclusions but they lack the knowledge and metacognitive ability to recognize the fact that they're wrong.

                As Darwin said: “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than knowledge.” And I think we can all agree that Rupert has a rather inflated sense of self. His confidence is not lacking.

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                • Original Poster

                  #48
                  Originally posted by Snowflake View Post
                  Rupert reminds me of the study by Kruger and Dunning: "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments"

                  Basically, the study states that people who are lowest on the scale of competance for a particular activity grossly overestimate their skill and ability. This overestimation of their skills makes the incompetant person reach erroneous and false conclusions but they lack the knowledge and metacognitive ability to recognize the fact that they're wrong.

                  As Darwin said: “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than knowledge.” And I think we can all agree that Rupert has a rather inflated sense of self. His confidence is not lacking.
                  Yes, this. ^^ (We need a "like" feature!)
                  You hate that, don’t you? Do you like oysters? You have to acquire a taste for oysters and the deep distance.”
                  -- George H. Morris on learning to love the deep distance

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by MrsFitzDarcy&Feliks View Post
                    This is part of a conversation from when I responded to a picture of the very large PRE doing a levade a few days ago. I was admittedly a bit snarky about the use of draw reins. I was corrected that these were Vienna reins and attempted to assuage Rupert. He is intent in the therapeutic nature of grand prix/haute ecole movements, and putting inexperienced riders on to do airs above ground.
                    Those are indeed vienna reins. Not draw reins. Being snarky about something you don't know/understand won't help your case here.

                    This photo looks like the rider doesn't have the educated seat for airs above ground. From what I've read, it takes 8-12 years at the Spanish Riding School
                    Maybe for a rider to train it on their own but the Spanish Riding School put all of their newbies on schoolmasters at the lunge for a year and they do perform the airs above the ground on the pillars or in-hand with the help of their trainer, way earlier than 8-12 years in their training (which would be a ridiculously long time). Actually, if their riding evaluation is good after 4 years, they are given a young stallion to train...So I bet their seat and training techniques are good enough for the airs above the ground their young stallion will undoubtly perform no matter what is being asked!

                    Also, putting an uneducated riders on Schoolmaster is the BEST way to teach them the feeling of what good riding should be. It goes SO MUCH FASTER that way.

                    That is how I learned about piaffe, passage, pesade and levade.That is how I learned about collection. That is how I learned about walk, trot, canter and jumping.

                    Maybe that picture shows the first time this girl performed the movement. Maybe the 'trainer' was telling her to let go of the reins? Who knows. I don't find this picture showing any sign of distress or pain or injury going to happen. It shows control, obedience and relatively well performed pesade under the circumstances (rider pulling on the rein)

                    If she were using draw reins she might pull the horse over. ....... I would be most concerned in this case of a rather large horse with a swayback having the strength to perform airs above ground without having chronic soreness or injuring himself.
                    She is not using draw reins. Point.
                    The horse seems happy and the pesade looks rather well done to me. Doesn't look sore at all. What if he has a sway back? If he is well prepared, not over-used and carefully checked...what is the problem?

                    Remember how long it takes for a horse to develop the musculature to do Grand Prix or high school. 10+ years!
                    Not really. To compete and do a whole show season is something. To perform one air above the ground once in a while without being asked too much out of it is something else.

                    And I will say that I agree with the guy when he says that those exercices (when performed correctly) can truly be beneficial to the horse's strenght.

                    Portuguese horses are trained to piaffe pretty early in their training. Lipizzaner as well. The SRS horses are started around 4yrs and are considered fully trained at 10yrs old. So 6 years of training for piaffe, passage, and the ones able to perform airs above the ground correctly enough to be in the show.

                    Horses showing at GP can be 8yrs old. So if started around 3-4, this gives around 5-6 years of training. Not that we see much of them at that age but if the training is appropriate, then one can easily bring alone a youngster built for the job that quick at that level without any damages. Those horses aren't going to be competitive until they reach a certain maturity but I digress.

                    This guy isn't showing or competiting, nor training toward showing. The horses don't need to be anywhere near perfect. Just as correct as possible. And have nice minds.

                    He told you he was doing hill work and lunging and trying to keep his horses as fit as possible for the job. I don't see it as being harmful.

                    I'm not saying this guy is the best ever trainer and he does seem like a 'know it all' type of person but so far, his horses look well adapted for what he does. Not worst than some Parellis have seen.

                    On the other hand, I really don't agree with the 'no shoes' 'no helmet' 'two on the horse' practice.
                    ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

                    Originally posted by LauraKY
                    I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
                    HORSING mobile training app

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                    • Original Poster

                      #50
                      It was hard to tell in that picture that they weren't draw reins. Besides, I was always taught that Vienna reins should not go between the legs, which made me think draw reins. Besides, I backed off on the draw reins thing when he explained himself.

                      However, he does admit to using Olympic or Market Harborough draw reins, the application of which is debate for a gaggle of new threads probably. There are pictures and videos of the horses in in the Olympic draw reins.

                      I simply can't imagine using piaffe or passage, etc. to build up a horse. A second level horse that can already transfer more weight and balance to the hind end, yes. An older horse putzing along a respectable training level? No. A naturally downhill horse? No. A younger horse eventually pointed at above first level? No. In all these types of cases, I can only see it doing more physical or mental harm than good.
                      You hate that, don’t you? Do you like oysters? You have to acquire a taste for oysters and the deep distance.”
                      -- George H. Morris on learning to love the deep distance

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Snowflake View Post
                        Rupert reminds me of the study by Kruger and Dunning: "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments"

                        Basically, the study states that people who are lowest on the scale of competance for a particular activity grossly overestimate their skill and ability. This overestimation of their skills makes the incompetant person reach erroneous and false conclusions but they lack the knowledge and metacognitive ability to recognize the fact that they're wrong.

                        As Darwin said: “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than knowledge.” And I think we can all agree that Rupert has a rather inflated sense of self. His confidence is not lacking.
                        Academic literature references -- I love it! IgNobel Prize-worthy research to boot.
                        Evolutionary science by day; keeping a certain red mare from winning a Darwin award the rest of the time!

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by MrsFitzDarcy&Feliks View Post
                          That, according to Rupert, is a levade. And I can see how the kids would like it. But, um, I don't see how it's safe for a therapy horse.
                          Sorry, that isn't a levade (and I realize that you know that it isn't ). It is a horse rearing on command. In a levade the horse really sits to the point that its base is very stable. I rode one once upon a time on a very well trained Lippizan mare with my instructor on a Lusitano right next to me talking me through it. I had been riding dressage for about 10 years at the time. It was one of the coolest thing I have ever done.

                          Horse boy may have well intentions, but, in practice, his program is a large accident waiting to happen.
                          Last edited by Home Again Farm; Sep. 22, 2012, 11:40 AM.
                          Mary Lou
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                          • #53
                            The hell... this not only looks ridiculous, this looks dangerous too!

                            If he really wanted to help kids, he should be worried about helping them become good riders, not trying to show off with these stupid stunts.
                            Yes, I smell like a horse. No, I don't consider that to be a problem.

                            Originally posted by DottieHQ
                            You're just jealous because you lack my extensive koalafications.

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                            • #54
                              dressage is "ripe for the picking"

                              O M G !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Well, well, we do already know that dressage lends itself in fact, has an " "open door policy" for charlatans; especially if male and with an accent! what is this ones' background?
                              breeder of Mercury!

                              remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans

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                              • #55
                                About Horse Boy Method - Conference call invitation

                                Dear all,

                                Please bare in mind that all we are trying to do is serve families affected by autism at best we can. We do serve local families for free.

                                As for helmets and closed toe shoes we do endorse them but we don't insist on them if we do know it will be a huge sensory issue for a child.

                                For all that are interested in getting more information on what we do, why we do it and why we thinks it works so that you can then form a more educated opinion, we invite you to a conference call on Tuesday October 2nd 2012 at 8PM CST. Please email us at info at horseboyworld.com for access code information.

                                Sincerely,
                                The Horse Boy Team.

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                                • #56
                                  I sent him an email. We'll see how many folks 'show up' for the call.
                                  "Friend" me !

                                  http://www.facebook.com/isabeau.solace

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                                  • Original Poster

                                    #57
                                    I think most people will not dispute the role of horses in animal assisted therapy in improving sensory-impaired individuals ability to relate to the outside world.

                                    Perhaps those interested in finding out more could list some questions in advance on this page.

                                    As I am working on a deadline for a graduate program assignment, I don't have time to research a ton of questions, but I will start with one.

                                    1) Is there a reason this Horse Boy Method doesn't ally itself with established, accredited organizations like PATH International (formerly NAHRA)? Such an organization offers:
                                    1. grant access and opportunities
                                    2. liability insurance access
                                    3. research legitimacy through "Best and Current Practices"
                                    4. legitimate connection to higher education programs and resources
                                    You hate that, don’t you? Do you like oysters? You have to acquire a taste for oysters and the deep distance.”
                                    -- George H. Morris on learning to love the deep distance

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by MrsFitzDarcy&Feliks View Post
                                      I think most people will not dispute the role of horses in animal assisted therapy in improving sensory-impaired individuals ability to relate to the outside world.

                                      Perhaps those interested in finding out more could list some questions in advance on this page.

                                      As I am working on a deadline for a graduate program assignment, I don't have time to research a ton of questions, but I will start with one.

                                      1) Is there a reason this Horse Boy Method doesn't ally itself with established, accredited organizations like PATH International (formerly NAHRA)? Such an organization offers:
                                      1. grant access and opportunities
                                      2. liability insurance access
                                      3. research legitimacy through "Best and Current Practices"
                                      4. legitimate connection to higher education programs and resources
                                      I think the perfect place to ask this would be the conference call.
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                                      • Original Poster

                                        #59
                                        Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                                        I think the perfect place to ask this would be the conference call.
                                        As I mentioned, I think it important for those participating in a conference call to be organized. This is a place to do this, so that questions are not repeated, are offered in a logical order, etc.

                                        I am not going to sit on a conference call only to be fed a speech. I have read Rupert's website and facebook page. There is nothing there I need repeated.
                                        You hate that, don’t you? Do you like oysters? You have to acquire a taste for oysters and the deep distance.”
                                        -- George H. Morris on learning to love the deep distance

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Just reading the website and looking at the photos, my conclusion is this is a loosely put together organization, it lacks professionalism. Even if you have a child who cannot wear a helmet or shoes, don't show it on the website, it should be dealt with on a case by case basis. Mounting a horse and a kid jumping on a trampoline is not showing good safety rules. Seriously, if they want to gain respect in the field, hire an experienced director.
                                          "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" Richard Bach

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