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Spinoff: "French School!"

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  • Original Poster

    Originally posted by mbm View Post
    I appreciate your comments. In this case, it isn't about the rider (moi) being afraid to let go, holding in the knees, etc etc. The pony is literally the most laid back thing i have ever sat on and inspiring him to move has been an education! He has no desire to gallop or buck or anything...

    the challenge has been me being determined enough to mean it when i say "go" etc.

    my trainer is one that i would not hesitate to give a baby too... in fact that is why i moved to his place and why i will give him my soon to be born pony when it is old enough. and my trainer has had a tremendous impact on pony and how willing he is to go forward.

    my question was just trying to see how a different school would answer the challenge. i know how we have resolved it
    In my experience there are two groups of "lazy" young horses; the more common sort are those who were never trained to a "proper" forward impulse from the start, and this can only be done on the longe or with work-in-hand. If the horse has never mentally made a connection between longe whip, dressage whip, and your leg, it's like trying to talk to someone who doesn't know Spanish. They will understand no better if you SHOUT at them in Spanish. What they need to do is take lessons in Spanish. So put the little dear back on the longe line and send 'er forward. Beaucoup many people today are turning out "backed" 30-day wonders so fast they've never taken the time to hardwire this response.

    The other group tend to be older; those that are confused, sometimes even sore and frequently sour, from conflicting aids (pushing onto the bit, no release) that they've just more or less shut down. All the aids have become meaningless "white noise" to them. This can also be horses started Western who are now, suddenly, expected to move into bit contact. Stoic, or sullen, they are incapable of responding to myriad discomforts that don't have any actionable "meaning" from their prior training. These, above all, are the horses that benefit by the Baucherist style of training. Separation & Moderation of the aids is paramount!

    Comment


    • Where does chewing fdo fit into self carriage? A mobile jaw combined with lateral flexibility can ALLOW (ask) the horse to seek the hand...and the horse will continue to arc out to the hand, still lifting the chest, but carrying with the top line, and opening the throat latch as well. (It follows from the work in hand with greater lateral flexibility where the horse has filled out the outside rein, horse chews (inside aids), the rider allows with outside rein. The rider keeps the (light) connection as the horse goes fdo. (Really the same in any school except where riders just tend to drop the connection.)
      I.D.E.A. yoda

      Comment


      • Originally posted by SwampYankee View Post
        trained to a "proper" forward impulse from the start, and this can only be done on the longe or with work-in-hand.
        ok, side question - just to see how others handle this: horse is working as you wish on the lunge, but once under saddle go back to being sluggish and while happy not as energetic as you would like. - how do you inform said horse that under saddle must be the same as on the lunge?

        Assume a well seated rider.

        Again, I know what is working with my guy, but i love to hear different solutions to current problems because you never know when the info might be useful

        Comment


        • Originally posted by stryder View Post
          It was started as a spin-off from another thread, "Who else doesn't compete?"
          Ah. Thanks. Since I compete, I didn't read that thread, therefore had no idea that's how this one started....

          Nontheless, there are definitely different schools amongst the French, which I think is worth talking about, which is why I brought up this link earlier:

          http://www.cousyndressage.com/dressa...n-the-bit.html

          It is a fairly simple article that briefly talks about the different schools.

          He talks about riding forward as well as the sepparation of leg and hand.

          mbm,
          The French trainer I ride with would probably sensitise the horse to the aides with simple transitions, maybe even starting with walk-halt-walk, so that the horse learns to respond to a lighter leg while maintaining relaxation. ...of course, he does a different brand of French training (Saumur*) than SwampYankee (Baucher - correct me if I'm wrong), and we do ride quite forward.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by inspired View Post
            Ah. Thanks. Since I compete, I didn't read that thread, therefore had no idea that's how this one started....

            Nontheless, there are definitely different schools amongst the French, which I think is worth talking about, which is why I brought up this link earlier:

            http://www.cousyndressage.com/dressa...n-the-bit.html

            It is a fairly simple article that briefly talks about the different schools.

            He talks about riding forward as well as the sepparation of leg and hand.

            mbm,
            The French trainer I ride with would probably sensitise the horse to the aides with simple transitions, maybe even starting with walk-halt-walk, so that the horse learns to respond to a lighter leg while maintaining relaxation. ...of course, he does a different brand of French training (Saumur*) than SwampYankee (Baucher - correct me if I'm wrong), and we do ride quite forward.

            The critical thing missing from that short blurb is the straightness of the horse, which is critical to lightness and self-carriage.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by mayhew View Post
              Where does the stretchy circle fit into this idea of self-carriage?
              It is the beginning of self-carriage and preparation for more advanced work. When the horse stretches his back is supposed to rise, making it easier for him to bend his SI and carry himself.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                Originally posted by mbm View Post
                ok, side question - just to see how others handle this: horse is working as you wish on the lunge, but once under saddle go back to being sluggish and while happy not as energetic as you would like. - how do you inform said horse that under saddle must be the same as on the lunge?

                Assume a well seated rider.

                Again, I know what is working with my guy, but i love to hear different solutions to current problems because you never know when the info might be useful
                You have to make the mental connection for him between the longe whip as a forward aid, the dressage whip as same, and your leg as having the same meaning. If he's good on the longe, but ignoring the dressage whip, on a greenbean I would ride him ON the longe, with the reins, but have the longe-line holder use no whip. When you want an "up" transition, the RIDER uses the whip (strongly, if necessary) behind the saddle on the horse's quarters to elicit the same response. Repeat as necessary; this really shouldn't take more than a day. You may need to "get after him" enough to generate a bit of a "scoot." Thereafter, use your dressage whip for all "up" transitions (including more impulsion) for a few days, adding the leg. Very quickly you'll find he responds to your legs alone, but the whip is always there for a sharp "backup" reminder should he need it.

                You must be rigorous about this. "Nagging" legs, or a leg aid which does not release immediately upon response, is NEVER permitted. Greenies need simple problems: Leg means GO, if I'm late I get a SWAT! BTW, I don't consider the above to even be "advanced" enough to fall under the rubric of "dressage." We did this with all colts and OTTB's--just basic horse training.

                More advanced techniques, like the "petit attacks" with the spurs and several variations of "rassembler" are for later. I can't emphasize enough that YOU MUST DO YOUR READING.
                Even Nuno Oliviera had problems he couldn't solve without study; he used to read in the bathroom at 5 in the morning! Always remember that generations of masters before ran into the same questions and problems we do.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by mbm View Post
                  ok, side question - just to see how others handle this: horse is working as you wish on the lunge, but once under saddle go back to being sluggish and while happy not as energetic as you would like. - how do you inform said horse that under saddle must be the same as on the lunge?

                  Assume a well seated rider.

                  Again, I know what is working with my guy, but i love to hear different solutions to current problems because you never know when the info might be useful
                  Ok I know this has been stated ad nauseum but I'd aggressively rule out physical causes, including experimenting with changing his diet, if you haven't done so already. I haven't had experience with many Connemaras but the ones I have were like energizer bunnies. Not nervous at all but they loved to go forward, forever.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    Originally posted by inspired View Post
                    Ah. Thanks. Since I compete, I didn't read that thread, therefore had no idea that's how this one started....

                    Nontheless, there are definitely different schools amongst the French, which I think is worth talking about, which is why I brought up this link earlier:

                    http://www.cousyndressage.com/dressa...n-the-bit.html

                    It is a fairly simple article that briefly talks about the different schools.

                    He talks about riding forward as well as the sepparation of leg and hand.

                    mbm,
                    The French trainer I ride with would probably sensitise the horse to the aides with simple transitions, maybe even starting with walk-halt-walk, so that the horse learns to respond to a lighter leg while maintaining relaxation. ...of course, he does a different brand of French training (Saumur*) than SwampYankee (Baucher - correct me if I'm wrong), and we do ride quite forward.
                    The riding of Saumur has evolved over time, as styles of riding always do. The point of departure, however, is in the time of General L'Hotte (remember Baucher's deathbed scene?) when the Cadre Noir was embroiled in a great controversy between partisans of Baucherisme and the camp of the equally colorful and controverisal Comte D'Aure, who believed in a much more "forward" riding a la the Italians for the development of the military horse. After all the hissing and spitting died down around 1900, what was left was a synthesis of the two lines of thought. Hence, you'll see old pictures from the 20's, General Decarpentry's time, riding quite forward on rangy TB's and sitting in something very close to what became the "American Balanced Seat." With short stirrups! However, they retained the flexions and most of the other techniques of Baucher's "deuxieme maniere," without always owning up to that.

                    That entire piece of history, rife with colorful personalities both human and equine, is a fascinating read and can be pursued in Hilda Nelson's 1997 book, Alexis-Francois L'Hotte: The Quest For Lightness In Equitation, published by J.A. Allen.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
                      Ok I know this has been stated ad nauseum but I'd aggressively rule out physical causes, including experimenting with changing his diet, if you haven't done so already. I haven't had experience with many Connemaras but the ones I have were like energizer bunnies. Not nervous at all but they loved to go forward, forever.
                      This has been my experience too, which is why I like them so much. Even my now Arab/Connemara even when "lazy" has a inner desire to go forward (even when she is balking or nappy she is still self propelled if you can imagine it).

                      How was Rebel with Megan riding him?

                      So far, from my experience with mine and the ones I have known, they want to go go go. I would wonder if he's just a bit bored.
                      On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by SwampYankee View Post
                        Even Nuno Oliviera had problems he couldn't solve without study; he used to read in the bathroom at 5 in the morning!
                        Thanks so much for that visual.
                        __________________________
                        "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
                        the best day in ten years,
                        you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

                        Comment


                        • "ok, side question - just to see how others handle this:"

                          Instead of driving the horse forward from something behind it, like a longe whip, or whip and spurs when ridden; (not a criticism, sometimes it works if the rider has tact) .. some people might set up some cavelletti and let the jumps DRAW the horse into more of a forward attitude; the horses focus becomes the jump; something out AHEAD and they starting thinking about gathering energy to get over the jump.

                          Cross country riding in company, nothing like a gallop in an open field to get the blood flowing and enthusiasm stirred up. It is a natural inclinication for horses to stay together and move as a herd so a person might want to take advantage of that. A good colt starter will get horses out of the arena within days of being backed, if not THE day they are started, at all three gaits just so the horse undertands that he can move freely and unhampered regardless of the weight on his back or the girth around his belly. Movement is a horses lifesaving defense against predators and it is very relaxing and confidence building to know that their rider is not going to inhibit their ability to get away from danger, if need be. How you start them, is how they are going to be..... which is why it is so important to find a competent person, someone who perhaps ONLY starts young horses, who is not afraid in the least and who can stay with the horse no matter what. If a horse was not started like this, perhaps it is time to RE-start them, although doing it properly the first time around is the better scenario because horses never forget their first introduction to having a rider on its back.

                          OR.........and this is probably the best but not always possible for lack of resources.........handle the problem like a cowboy would.........a person can go chase some cattle. Horses LOVE getting those cows moving and on the run. Cattle are a great draw. A great draw for the rider too; it is hard to look down and worry about your horse when you have job to do and cattle to sort.

                          These are things that INSPIRE the horse forward, drawing them, and thinking AHEAD.

                          If a person isn`t up to it, it is probably best to hire someone trustworthy that has more ability. This is not a criticism, we all have to depend on someone else once in awhile to get over a hump. It is imperative that the person riding the horse does not 'block" them either consciously or unconsciously. We have to be honest with ourselves about our ability.

                          Many times the problem with a horse that the rider finds is not forward is a horse that the rider says "go" but his body energy says "don`t go" because he is actually afraid of the horse getting fast. People have braces just like horses do and you can`t fool a horse.

                          I am not saying this is something that anyone should do, I am just saying that these are things that some people do.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Perfect Pony View Post
                            This has been my experience too, which is why I like them so much. Even my now Arab/Connemara even when "lazy" has a inner desire to go forward (even when she is balking or nappy she is still self propelled if you can imagine it).

                            How was Rebel with Megan riding him?

                            So far, from my experience with mine and the ones I have known, they want to go go go. I would wonder if he's just a bit bored.

                            There is nothing wrong with him, and when he is motivated he will go and go.... he would just rather stand around being social.

                            Megan rode him once i think. that was back when he was like 30 days under saddle.

                            In any case, we have resolved the issue and now for me it is just fine tuning. In the end the issue was me not being determined enough to get him moving. which in the end involved a determined and swift response from me - but once he understood i meant go he went

                            the funny thing with him is that he is very sensitive.... just would rather not move lol! He is very smart

                            as a cautionary tale to others - be careful listening to people on BBs - (not necessarily this thread) the whole thing about not using hands, or horses will always go forward unless they are sick or broken is just BS. Sometimes the horse just doesn't want to go and sometimes you need to say "yes horse you will go"

                            this is why i no longer put much into reading what folks say - i want to see it now because what people do and what they say are sometimes very different

                            Comment


                            • I got to ride a connemara last weekend!

                              I really think they are work minded but definately double checking, "You sure lady?" "YES! Im sure!" lol

                              I felt like (this one was ready for it), what really helped was a bit of collected walk making sure he was ready to jump from that into canter or trot and on the aids. If I got a false start I went back to MORE on the aids at collected walk vs more leg or whip (although I still needed it on the circle for more jump).

                              If it was a younger horse I would just do a few steps of a "shorter" walk and put the horse to the aids more (gently).

                              Swamp talks about the "attack with the spurs" (sounds horrible but it doesnt have to be). Ive seen this used in clinics by all types of trainers from german to french and dutch.

                              I pick up the whip if I am NOT going to use simple for transition but to amplify something and I make sure I use it for that and then try and put it down.
                              ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
                              http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by mbm View Post
                                There is nothing wrong with him, and when he is motivated he will go and go.... he would just rather stand around being social.

                                Megan rode him once i think. that was back when he was like 30 days under saddle.

                                In any case, we have resolved the issue and now for me it is just fine tuning. In the end the issue was me not being determined enough to get him moving. which in the end involved a determined and swift response from me - but once he understood i meant go he went

                                the funny thing with him is that he is very sensitive.... just would rather not move lol! He is very smart

                                as a cautionary tale to others - be careful listening to people on BBs - (not necessarily this thread) the whole thing about not using hands, or horses will always go forward unless they are sick or broken is just BS. Sometimes the horse just doesn't want to go and sometimes you need to say "yes horse you will go"

                                this is why i no longer put much into reading what folks say - i want to see it now because what people do and what they say are sometimes very different
                                Well from what I have witnessed in real life, the vast majority of horses that have chronic issues are either lame, or are in discomfort in some clear way. This could be physicalbor caused by the rider.
                                On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Perfect Pony View Post
                                  Well from what I have witnessed in real life, the vast majority of horses that have chronic issues are either lame, or are in discomfort in some clear way. This could be physicalbor caused by the rider.
                                  Same here, although these things can be difficult to suss out, as you well know.

                                  mbm there's really only two ways to get a horse moving: ride the horse in forward company or use the whip if the horse doesn't listen to your leg. I don't know what you mean by fine tuning. Either the horse is light to your leg or he isn't. If you are having to repeat the lesson something is wrong.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Perfect Pony View Post
                                    Well from what I have witnessed in real life, the vast majority of horses that have chronic issues are either lame, or are in discomfort in some clear way. This could be physicalbor caused by the rider.
                                    I have known personally two purebred Connemara geldings here in CA that experienced subclinical respiratory issues at the same age as MBMs Rebel is now. One is my own gelding and the other belongs to a good friend who lives in the Napa area. The ponies are completely unrelated and have never had any contact with each other. What is odd about it is that "tracheitis" is not really typical in that age group (4-5). It may be far fetched--but the condition can become chronic if left untreated/undiagnosed. Just thought worth mentioning.
                                    Redbud Ranch
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                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
                                      Same here, although these things can be difficult to suss out, as you well know.

                                      mbm there's really only two ways to get a horse moving: ride the horse in forward company or use the whip if the horse doesn't listen to your leg. I don't know what you mean by fine tuning. Either the horse is light to your leg or he isn't. If you are having to repeat the lesson something is wrong.
                                      Then there are the horses just not built for dressage, mentally or physically. Some of those end up lame from the work, or sore. That was my last pony, who I sold as a hunter before it turned into a physical lameness. Not all people can be gymnasts, not all horses can do dressage.
                                      On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Perfect Pony View Post
                                        Then there are the horses just not built for dressage, mentally or physically. Some of those end up lame from the work, or sore. That was my last pony, who I sold as a hunter before it turned into a physical lameness. Not all people can be gymnasts, not all horses can do dressage.
                                        Barring a physical problem all horses should be able to do First Level dressage. It's when you get into the collected work that horses may just have trouble working in a true collected "frame" (hate to use that word) for sustained periods of time.

                                        Didn't your pony have high/low? Was being crooked a problem for her?

                                        btw I agree that while all horses can benefit from dressage training, not all can be competitive dressage horses.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
                                          Barring a physical problem all horses should be able to do First Level dressage. It's when you get into the collected work that horses may just have trouble working in a true collected "frame" (hate to use that word) for sustained periods of time.

                                          Didn't your pony have high/low? Was being crooked a problem for her?

                                          btw I agree that while all horses can benefit from dressage training, not all can be competitive dressage horses.
                                          She was extremely high low, with a very dropped shoulder on one side. Even first level work made her uneven and sore in her shoulder. She struggled to canter to the right in a tl frame. She was very straight on a straight line.

                                          Going in a pokey nose hunter frame however, she is happy and sound.
                                          On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

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