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Spinoff: "French School!"

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  • Originally posted by goodpony View Post
    yes, I have this book. sitting on my desk And I agree, I am kinda fanatical about conditioning, which is why I posted about not pushing him beyond his capabilities/scope and that goes along with fitness--he is not a baby but he is still young enough that his best years are yet to come. He is also transitiioning from T-First Level to more 2nd/3rd Level stuff. He works hard because he lives out on grass pasture 24/7--and If I don't ride him he will be as big as a house.

    I will try to get some new video of his current work and share that--dont think that video is representative of the work he is giving me this week---(had to be a little cognizant of the temperature) unfortunately its supposed to rain! No idea if I can capture video of his 'soft landing'---but I sure would like to see it myself!



    and this sounds like him--he would rather not work too hard but his gaits are changing a little at a time. Today was especially good--he was much straighter.
    Museler's ideas, many of which, especially the "braced back" have been rejected by even modern German dressage exponents, are pretty much the antithesis of the French methods of lightness as discussed in this thread. Museler's book was extremely popular in the 80's in the U.S., and regrettably is the precise source of a great many MISinterpretations of the German system resulting in a great deal of the very bad (push-and-pull, bump and grind) dressage we see today. Simply put, the translation was done badly, and many things poorly expressed.

    The Gymnasium des Pferdes of Steinbrecht is a far more correct description; however, these sources all have no relationship to the Legerete (French) system here under discussion.

    Comment


    • It does help thank you, I wondered if it was something people did every day---or more something to be used as needed and or in a structured program. We've had good response using both standing/ridden flexions combined with the stepping over exersizes--but he like you say is not offering constant resistance.
      Redbud Ranch
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      • fwiw, not sure if this will help, but it is possible to get too much collection too soon with a learning rider/horse. when this happens within my rides i am instructed to HH more lightly and to give more...... to ride more forward instead of balling them up.

        The other thing that i might look at is the quality of the walk - to see what it has to say because it will give you a good idea of the over all work......

        i would be curious what your trainer says?

        also, i was thinking have you had your rides videoed and then send the video to your trainer and asked for typed feedback in return?

        that might be helpful?

        Comment


        • I do standing flexions at the beginning of every ride. It's how I get the "weather report" on my mare. If she responds quickly to a light request, I'll hop on and expect good transmittal. If she's distracted, I'll do a few more standing flexions or work in hand until I have her mind. This is the routine that sets us up for the best outcome.

          Comment


          • Posted by Lady Eboshi:


            Museler's ideas, many of which, especially the "braced back" have been rejected by even modern German dressage exponents, are pretty much the antithesis of the French methods of lightness as discussed in this thread. Museler's book was extremely popular in the 80's in the U.S., and regrettably is the precise source of a great many MISinterpretations of the German system resulting in a great deal of the very bad (push-and-pull, bump and grind) dressage we see today. Simply put, the translation was done badly, and many things poorly expressed.

            The Gymnasium des Pferdes of Steinbrecht is a far more correct description; however, these sources all have no relationship to the Legerete (French) system here under discussion.
            Well, I am not very imporessed with some of what I have seen coming out of Germny theses days, and I don't know who 'debunked' Museelr, but I find a lot of his theory to be extremely helpful.

            The 'bracing of the back' being one of the most helpful. It is never intended to be anything more than instantaneous.

            Comment


            • Then you must have the good background training, feel and insight to read between the lines what was truly intended.

              Unfortunately, most readers got something else out of it entirely.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by stryder View Post
                I do standing flexions at the beginning of every ride. It's how I get the "weather report" on my mare. If she responds quickly to a light request, I'll hop on and expect good transmittal. If she's distracted, I'll do a few more standing flexions or work in hand until I have her mind. This is the routine that sets us up for the best outcome.
                I do too. I have a young - very big BWP and as with all greenies he has good days and days where the focus is on another planet. The flexions help him in so many ways other than the obvious ones. He also requires a long warmup, being big and tall, especially on the chilly days, and they are a great ways to begin this warmup process.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by belgianWBLuver View Post
                  as with all greenies he has good days and days where the focus is on another planet.
                  LOL. Don't you find they are like birds? I cannot "pursue" focus or her attention. I must wait quietly, sometimes tapping with the whip, until it comes to me.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by mbm View Post

                    The other thing that i might look at is the quality of the walk - to see what it has to say because it will give you a good idea of the over all work......
                    His walk can be really exceptional especially for a pony but has always had a slight tendency towards becoming lateral especially if any tension creeps in my seat or if sometimes I forget to keep following with the hand. In that respect he is more sensitive than others I have known with more fully developed "top line". It is something that I am always very conscious of--which again makes me wonder about developing positive tension (the good kind) as we progress. When we are showing he rarely falls into this tendency and has scored remarkably well for me at the medium & free walk. My instructor has mentioned several times in recent months that his tendency has all but disappeared--but I think this is due in part to his overall development at s a riding horse--that and I am learning to better manage his special requirements as an individual. You have to consider also he is wavering between levels--though more recently coming out as more 2nd/3rd level pony--so he is very much beginning the "second and third" phases of his training (confirming horizontal balance with continued progression towards shifting that balance to the hind quarters).

                    Or from a slightly different perspective (I'd guess we'd be wavering between 2-3 and 4) on this diagram: School of Lightness
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                    • Originally posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
                      The Gymnasium des Pferdes of Steinbrecht is a far more correct description; however, these sources all have no relationship to the Legerete (French) system here under discussion.
                      I have this as well but have not had a chance to get started with it at this point. Life.
                      Redbud Ranch
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                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by stryder View Post
                        LOL. Don't you find they are like birds? I cannot "pursue" focus or her attention. I must wait quietly, sometimes tapping with the whip, until it comes to me.
                        Exactly!! And waiting can be difficult sometimes and for many riders. I've learned (the hard way) to wait and bring my patience to the forefront when working horses.
                        One person who really demonstrates this is Bertrand Ravoux, you know, the guy who will be holding the "legerite" clinics for Philippe Karl for the next 3 years.
                        He can get on any horse and really wait him out until the focus comes but never does his attitude change. This comes from working many many horses and of different types.
                        I can only aspired to have that much tact in my work!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by belgianWBLuver View Post
                          Exactly!! And waiting can be difficult sometimes and for many riders. I've learned (the hard way) to wait and bring my patience to the forefront when working horses.
                          So, so true!! While it may seem a slower way to work, it's really a much faster way to progress. On those days when it actually takes a few minutes of flexions or in-hand work to attract her, I can mount then and start work right away.

                          We think we need to be riding to work. But I'm learning the work should occur where ever it is. Resistance in the cross-ties? Picking up feet? At the mounting block? It is where it is. We shouldn't quickly pass by those speed bumps on our way to work. Sometimes those things *are* the work.

                          Patience and sometimes just flat waiting them out. The key to so many good things with horses.

                          Comment


                          • Here is an article on generating "positive tension" (and IMO reflects a respect for lightness/balance and the training scale to which I am a beleiver ): http://www.equisearch.com/horses_rid...ension_073009/

                            (and also this which I thought was really interesting: http://www.stepintodressage.com/imag...s/Legerete.jpg)

                            (Or even this representation: http://www.stepintodressage.com/imag...les/german.jpg)
                            Redbud Ranch
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                            Comment


                            • Great stuff! And just happened upon THIS major treasure trove of goodies, too:

                              http://andalusiansdemythos.com/class...iles/page5.htm

                              Pour yourself a glass of fine old Madeira and prepare to spend the NIGHT!

                              Comment


                              • Oh thanks for that---I'll enjoy looking at this now that its rainy/high winds--not much fun for riding with a newly naked pony and the extreme drop in temps
                                Redbud Ranch
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                                • Posted by Lady Eboshi:

                                  Museler's ideas, many of which, especially the "braced back" have been rejected by even modern German dressage exponents, are pretty much the antithesis of the French methods of lightness as discussed in this thread. Museler's book was extremely popular in the 80's in the U.S., and regrettably is the precise source of a great many MISinterpretations of the German system resulting in a great deal of the very bad (push-and-pull, bump and grind) dressage we see today. Simply put, the translation was done badly, and many things poorly expressed.

                                  The Gymnasium des Pferdes of Steinbrecht is a far more correct description; however, these sources all have no relationship to the Legerete (French) system here under discussion.
                                  I don't want to get into a tiff with you, but this concept that Museler "regrettably is the precise source of a great many MISinterpretations of the German system resulting in a great deal of the very bad (push-and-pull, bump and grind) dressage we see today" is giving an incredible amount of influence over to one person writing one book.

                                  So, everyone read this book and all of a sudden several centuries of excellent German and Austrian technique was transformed into the most destructive method of schooling the planet has seen so far?

                                  That just seems like such a big stretch.

                                  Comment


                                  • The posterior tilting of the pelvis for a millisecond as part of a hh is what Museler is trying to explain. It is hugely misunderstood, and with rk has become a btv posture in the rider.
                                    I.D.E.A. yoda

                                    Comment


                                    • I know I got as much from Museler as I did from Nuno O.
                                      Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

                                      Comment


                                      • (which is either a lot or nothing.... LOL)
                                        I.D.E.A. yoda

                                        Comment


                                        • Yeah, guess I should have said a lot.
                                          Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

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