• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Spinoff: "French School!"

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Original Poster

    #21
    Originally posted by mp View Post
    Amen. I understand the intellectual need to discuss German vs French and the differences in training. But you still have to ride the horse. And they're all individuals.



    *ding-ding* IMO, you can't do anything -- French, German, classical, whatever -- if you have no forward energy to work with.



    Can someone tell me what this means? I see this term used a lot. Is having horses that are "light, straight and balanced" the only requirement? Lots of longe line work in lessons? Trainer doesn't compete?

    Enlighten me, please.
    If we want to keep this discussion training-focused on the actual, "using" specifics, best we not get bogged down in the unwinnable circular argument about what is "classical." It has been defined many ways; some say only the teachings of La Guerinere, or only that used by the Vienna School, or only the techniques used in Renaissance-era equitation which would completely eliminate the whole of the "modern" sport, etc. Some of the German persuasion think Baucher's style is heresy; even some Frenchmen (Comte D'Aure and his partisans) rejected Baucher politically even while they used his techniques covertly! This question has been around since the 1830's and has never been resolved to anyone's satisfaction . . .

    So let's stay focused on technique! Now, there seems to be a bit of dissent as to what "forward" and "balance" are defined as here; for my money, "forward" means a willing forward impulse, meaning the horse has his "engine" engaged and wants to go. This is NOT to be confused with speed, or actual "gait over the ground." What we are very specifically NOT doing is putting the horse into a trot or a canter and then trying to balance him after the fact when he starts out on his forehand. We balance him FIRST before initiating the upward transition. Here are the signs to look for:

    Relaxation of the jaw
    Elevation of the withers (rocking his weight back)
    Engagement and willingness to move off your leg

    Notice we are not looking for "firm contact" here. Do not EVER confuse this state of "between" hands and legs as "behind the bit." "Behind the bit" is actually "behind the leg," e.g. "sucking back," and not at all a light horse who is willing to leap forward off your spur if you asked him to.

    Comment


    • #22
      Forward is a condition which originates in balance.
      I was taught that the most important lesson you can teach a young horse in its first 30-60 days under saddle is 'forward'. Once forward has been established the rest is about helping the horse to reestablish its natural balance under the rider. Only when natural balance has been achieved can any further training proceed. By natural balance I mean the horse moves rhythmically (with energy and tempo), swinging (with Elasticity and Suppleness), and with consistent contact with the riders hand. As the horse regains balance and allows himself to be straightened the quality of the balance continues to improve. The horse comes more on the riders aides and the last resistances in the poll, trunk, haunches are lost.

      with respect to separation of the aides--I wonder how many riders are aware of when they send conflicting messages--I know this is something I work on repeatedly with my instructor.
      Redbud Ranch
      Check us out on FB

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by SwampYankee View Post
        If we want to keep this discussion training-focused on the actual, "using" specifics, best we not get bogged down in the unwinnable circular argument about what is "classical." It has been defined many ways; some say only the teachings of La Guerinere, or only that used by the Vienna School, or only the techniques used in Renaissance-era equitation which would completely eliminate the whole of the "modern" sport, etc. Some of the German persuasion think Baucher's style is heresy; even some Frenchmen (Comte D'Aure and his partisans) rejected Baucher politically even while they used his techniques covertly! This question has been around since the 1830's and has never been resolved to anyone's satisfaction . . .
        What I thought. Depends on who's using the term.
        __________________________
        "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
        the best day in ten years,
        you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

        Comment


        • #24
          Many threads on dressage training will sooner or later come around to focus on the topic of "forward", mainly because without forward movement not much can be accomplished.

          I come from a place where "forward" is a mental state of mind, not so much a physical occurance because if you don`t have a "forward thinking" horse, you will not really have forward OR any genuine throughness.

          When we do come from a place where "forward" or anything else we do with a horse is dependant on his mental state; mainly because any action starts in the brain, as a thought, then I think we understand horses a lot better.

          When we ask the horse to step under it`s body shadow with its hind leg, changes happen in the horses mental state, IF it is done correctly. The old dressage masters knew this,..... the cowboy Vaqueros knew this VERY well, and all training started with such. The old masters used it, not only with their groundwork but, with the use of the shoulder-in when mounted. To soften the horses rib cage by asking the horse to step under, the movement helps the horse to let go of it`s defenses. When a horse is not forward, it is mostly a defense, not laziness, as many people think.

          So the starting point of any work should begin with asking the horse to step under and across behind, from the ground. When the ribcage is soft, the jaw will come too, and thus the poll.......and the focus and mind of the horse will aslo come and then, there won`t be the resistance of "not forward", "shying", "distracted" that you hear so much about.

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by mp View Post
            What I thought. Depends on who's using the term.
            Yep! Like when the term LDR is used and you see this nasty overly round animal pulled by the curb to the chest vs. a horse nicely rounded and a soft hand.

            If the horse is going nicely we can put down the books
            ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
            http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

            Comment


            • #26
              Fascinating thread and a great read - thank you all for your insights!

              Can I ask how the French school of thought would teach forward differently from the German? Are there videos/other resources available that I should look at to learn more?

              Comment


              • #27
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-zjXpurSao

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by re-runs View Post
                  When we do come from a place where "forward" or anything else we do with a horse is dependant on his mental state; mainly because any action starts in the brain, as a thought, then I think we understand horses a lot better.

                  To soften the horses rib cage by asking the horse to step under, the movement helps the horse to let go of it`s defenses. When a horse is not forward, it is mostly a defense, not laziness, as many people think.
                  Very nice comments. Thanks!

                  Also, we should add in "confusion," because many if not most "resistant" horses that aren't in pain are confused because they feel unable to find a way out of defensiveness. Nothing they do works to relieve them of the pressure, and they try a lot of things, a number of which we don't like. So we up the pressure, of course, still without consistently releasing it, and eh voila, a resistant and/or lazy and/or "not forward" horse.

                  That's why it's so important to release the pressure at the precise moment the horse offers what you asked for, and release it clearly, so the horse understands.

                  As a horse becomes more "trained," meaning it not only comprehends the simple, single aids, but has a rider it can trust to apply and release them in a way that makes sense to the horse, then you can add more subtle variations, ask for an "upgrade" in performance--and know that the horse will be confident enough to accept it and even enjoy himself. Horses LOVE consistency. It makes them happy and calm. They love to know that when they respond accurately to a clear, simple aid, they can affect what happens to them.

                  The whole idea of "submission" is backwards. The horse isn't "submitting" to the aids. It's understanding what to do to get the pressure released, and thus is willing.

                  When they can't affect what happens to them, or they get an inconsistent response from the rider, this creates worry.

                  It's the difference between having a boss or parent who says, "Wash the dishes" and then leaves you alone while you wash them, and someone who stands over your shoulder telling you that you left a speck, you aren't drying them right, who yanks your face back when you glance out the window, who picks up your arm and shoves the dishrag between your fingers as you try to reach for a plate, then yells at you when it slips and breaks.
                  Ring the bells that still can ring
                  Forget your perfect offering
                  There is a crack in everything
                  That's how the light gets in.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Mains sans jambes - Jambes sans mains

                    Originally posted by SwampYankee View Post
                    ...
                    Separation of the aids (hand without legs, legs without hand);

                    Release of the aids (when the horse responds, aid ceases)

                    Moderation of the aids (action and reaction in proportion)

                    Optimization of orders (BALANCE is the key to everything)

                    Resulting in:

                    "Liberty on parole" aka self-carriage in collection.

                    ...

                    Here we go . . . .
                    I am enjoying reading your thread thank you for starting it. I heard that term everyday while working as a groom for at several barns in France and Portugal and Germany.

                    I do think however that it is primordial, before one can really understand these terms and the correct usage of the aides, that we ourselves be really supple and physically fit enough to understand how to use our own bodies. We must know how to isolate parts of our body and to control them separately or together to apply an aide correctly.
                    This is a huge challenge for dressage riders (especially novices) and when we start to progress and become effective at controling our bodies and emotions only then can we really "feel" and communicate with our horses.

                    Mileage in the saddle, yoga, pilates, martial arts, whatever but we must get there to be effective in riding to lightness.

                    Comment


                    • #30




                      You are bad alicen

                      If you can restrain yourself from ALWAYS trying to half step the video actually shows some extreme versions of something that is good... But its turned from ice cream to a blizzard at that farm
                      ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
                      http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Oh my.
                        __________________________
                        "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
                        the best day in ten years,
                        you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post



                          You are bad alicen
                          Well, people, find me something else.

                          Like mbm said "nowadays, i rarely read theory now i want to SEE theory in action then i want to DO it myself.... "

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            Originally posted by Mouse&Bay View Post
                            Fascinating thread and a great read - thank you all for your insights!

                            Can I ask how the French school of thought would teach forward differently from the German? Are there videos/other resources available that I should look at to learn more?
                            The German school puts the horse in motion first, and works to achieve balance from there; this method works best with, I'm fond of saying exclusively with, WB's. The French school actually does a great deal of the early work at the WALK, hence exercises like 4-track shoulder-in and especially "counted" walk, and are not above working even at the halt with spoiled or phlegmatic horses who first need to understand the effet d'ensemble. In the French way of thinking, if your horse has no forward mind (I like that post above), and no balance at the halt or walk, things will only get WORSE at trot and will be hopeless by canter. The right feel is like "riding the clutch" at a red light in a nice sports car!

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              MelantheLLC...........

                              You GET IT!


                              "Also, we should add in "confusion," because many if not most "resistant" horses that aren't in pain are confused because they feel unable to find a way out of defensiveness. Nothing they do works to relieve them of the pressure, and they try a lot of things, a number of which we don't like. So we up the pressure, of course, still without consistently releasing it, and eh voila, a resistant and/or lazy and/or "not forward" horse.

                              That's why it's so important to release the pressure at the precise moment the horse offers what you asked for, and release it clearly, so the horse understands.

                              As a horse becomes more "trained," meaning it not only comprehends the simple, single aids, but has a rider it can trust to apply and release them in a way that makes sense to the horse, then you can add more subtle variations, ask for an "upgrade" in performance--and know that the horse will be confident enough to accept it and even enjoy himself. Horses LOVE consistency. It makes them happy and calm. They love to know that when they respond accurately to a clear, simple aid, they can affect what happens to them.

                              The whole idea of "submission" is backwards. The horse isn't "submitting" to the aids. It's understanding what to do to get the pressure released, and thus is willing.

                              When they can't affect what happens to them, or they get an inconsistent response from the rider, this creates worry.

                              It's the difference between having a boss or parent who says, "Wash the dishes" and then leaves you alone while you wash them, and someone who stands over your shoulder telling you that you left a speck, you aren't drying them right, who yanks your face back when you glance out the window, who picks up your arm and shoves the dishrag between your fingers as you try to reach for a plate, then yells at you when it slips and breaks."

                              Love this by the way:
                              "There is a crack in everything
                              That's how the light gets in."

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by alicen View Post
                                Well, people, find me something else.

                                Like mbm said "nowadays, i rarely read theory now i want to SEE theory in action then i want to DO it myself.... "
                                No its true! I agree.

                                I think the half step training is fine in the video... But just all that is being done Like passage is the only thing a horse needs to do dressage? And on a horse that is clearly not fit.

                                The levels are clearly attempting to help keep a horses progression on this side of normal. I have no problem with early collected steps. BUT STEPS AS IN A FEW!

                                That video should be the type of work someone does for a few minutes here and there (or not at all until the level it is required).
                                ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
                                http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by SwampYankee View Post
                                  The German school puts the horse in motion first, and works to achieve balance from there; this method works best with, I'm fond of saying exclusively with, WB's. The French school actually does a great deal of the early work at the WALK, hence exercises like 4-track shoulder-in and especially "counted" walk, and are not above working even at the halt with spoiled or phlegmatic horses who first need to understand the effet d'ensemble. In the French way of thinking, if your horse has no forward mind (I like that post above), and no balance at the halt or walk, things will only get WORSE at trot and will be hopeless by canter. The right feel is like "riding the clutch" at a red light in a nice sports car!
                                  Many of the French school who train horses will not even take on a horse who is not naturally forward, as, at best, it is difficult to achieve forwardness in this type of horse. However, many times you can see that horses who evade the forward aides, tend to learn more effectively with work in hand. Then when they "understand" forwardness it is easy to translate to riding them.
                                  These people "the Henriquets" are French classisists in every sense of the word but like others, have been able to apply their methodes to many different breeds of horse. Enjoy...
                                  http://www.henriquet.fr/english/fram...vaux_catherine

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #37
                                    The video someone so kindly linked shows very clearly exactly what we're talking about and the results that can be gotten (and it doesn't take 10 years!) with just about any sound horse. BTW, I am not affiliated with Sugar Creek or the video producers, I most often just work with my own horses unless a boarder wants some help or has a question.

                                    A note on tack fitting: See those horses in the video bridled without a noseband? One of the first things we do is get rid of any noseband that you can't put 4 fingers + under; in order for the horse to relax, yield his jaw and chew the bit, he MUST not have his jaws restrained by any tight noseband. As you see here, many people just take the noseband off entirely.

                                    The other thing we do is let the bit hang such that there are no wrinkles, or one mild wrinkle if conformationally necessary, in the corner of the mouth but NEVER the bit pulled up to the point where there are 2 or more. Otherwise, for all practical purposes the horse never gets any release. I believe both of the above are in and of themselves major causes of resistance due to pain (I can elaborate as to why if anyone's interested) and for the life of me I don't understand why so many (both hunter and dressage) trainers are doing the 2-wrinkle thing these days; I've never heard an actual rationale for it beyond doing it because every one else does!

                                    From a functional standpoint it is just plain incorrect.

                                    Many QH's, who were Western-broke first, find this way of riding easily compatible with what they already know, as long as they weren't artificially induced to peanut-push and cramp up their gaits, and even that is fixable.

                                    It is worth noting that Baucher's method specifically evolved to make the TB's and Anglo-Arabs then becoming fashionable for both civilian hacking and the military more rideable. This includes, famously, some extremely sensitive and difficult horses, the kind who utterly refuse to tolerate working in any ongoing discomfort. My old QH eventer was one; German seat a la Museler would get you a rear over backwards . . . Racinet's method made him a happy boy working to the age of 30 after a long career over fences!

                                    BTW, if you've ever read the books of the late Nuno Oliveira, his riding was of this camp as well, with minor variations.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #38
                                      Originally posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
                                      No its true! I agree.

                                      I think the half step training is fine in the video... But just all that is being done Like passage is the only thing a horse needs to do dressage? And on a horse that is clearly not fit.

                                      The levels are clearly attempting to help keep a horses progression on this side of normal. I have no problem with early collected steps. BUT STEPS AS IN A FEW!

                                      That video should be the type of work someone does for a few minutes here and there (or not at all until the level it is required).
                                      This IS the kind of work someone does for a few minutes. The video was a collection of very heavily edited clips from what appears to be several clinics. People bring all kinds of horses to clinics, and Jean-Claude would take 'em as they came as did Baucher before him. Yes, it goes without saying that proper preparation for any High School work includes a horse properly conditioned and fit, preferably made that way outdoors over natural country. But that, regrettably, is not everyone's reality today as we all know.

                                      Addressing the "half-steps" etc: First, achieve understanding and balance. Then, add impulsion, though I prefer to call it "amplitude," a little at a time. What restricts this process is that you must add impulsion WITHOUT blowing the balance!!
                                      Should your horse fall on his forehand, go against the bit or suck back behind your leg, transition down immediately and back up to Square One. They learn what is wanted very, very quickly and one of the beautiful things about it is you don't need to POUND them around and around that old 20-meter circle for endless miles trying to "put them together." They're "together" when you move away from the mounting-block; and that means not only schooling, but going out on the trail, moving off with hounds, or even (gasp!) stepping on the trailer since you brought up work in hand!

                                      The "levels" of the USDF/FEI are irrelevant here; they simply do not apply. If you want to show, you show your French School horse in whatever class you can present him to advantage; but the competition training-tree or progression is not applied or enforced in this training. Apples and oranges!

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        I'll put on my fire suit now - Ugh just struggling into it
                                        OK now its on...

                                        The thing I do not love about the first video is that the most of the horses have no real implusion - not like Oliveira's horses.
                                        In their forward or lateral movements most seem like they are not using themselves. The riders release the reins and often have no contact at all - this is a falicy that is often committed under the name of classical dressage or the French school.

                                        I'm a classisist but I believe in impulsion - In today's terms: Uta Graf, Paul Belasik, Catheine Henriquet, etc...

                                        Ok Flame suit off

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          #40
                                          BTW--Baucher's famous last words on his deathbed were conveyed not to Jean-Claude Racinet (though he'd have liked that!) but to General, then Colonel, L'Hotte of the Cadre Noir.

                                          As Racinet explained it to me, "Always This" means: squeeze the rein with a fixed hand like crushing a clump of dirt in your garden. "Never this"--like pulling on your boots with boot hooks or opening a drawer. Very easy-to-remember definition of the fixed hand.

                                          Someone above noted the need for rider fitness and a truly independent seat--Jean-Claude it must be noted was a member of the French Army jumping team first, and was fond of saying that if you can't jump a 3'6" vertical with no reins, no stirrups and your arms crossed behind your back, don't even think about riding the High School. And he held me to it!

                                          In the video it's mentioned that many of Jean-Claude's old students don't teach--this is one major reason why. The methods can also be the razor in the hand of a monkey if they are misapplied by riders who are still using strength of any kind just to stay on. You may want to test yourself, at least over a cross-rail or two or bareback, to see if you think you qualify . . .

                                          Belasik, Henriquet, et. al. are not pure Baucherists; Oliveira had knockdown dragout debates about whether he actually was or not! Again, what is important here is neither dogma, just the outcome for the horse. Jean-Claude would be the first one always to say, Do What Works! And we totally believe in impulsion too--but we add it AFTER we have balance. German school does it the other way around. All roads lead to Rome . . .

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X