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Trainer hates my saddle.

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  • Trainer hates my saddle.

    It's a 1960s vintage PS-Baum which suits me* and the horse** just fine. However Trainer and hubby are ganging up on me and telling me that my saddle 'needs' knee rolls that the saddle puts me in the wrong position** too brown too flat too out of style.

    Answer me straight up...Does a saddle 'need' knee rolls? for the rider to have the correct position?
    What is correct? Perhaps riding styles have styles changed in the 45 years?
    Does anyone have links to videos of winning dressage riders from the 60s so I can reference them?


    *The seat is rock hard maybe the men are just wimps wanting me to buy a pillow in case they want to hop on my horse.
    **The tree was adjusted last year and flocked to fit my arab - don't plan on showing dressage (which they both do) my goal was always endurance - I don't see how keeping the horse from lifting his head during a transition would matter on a 50 mile ride.
    Teach your child to love riding and they will never have money for drugs.

  • #2
    No, a saddle does not need knee rolls to keep a rider in the correct position.

    Read Catherine Haddad's blog about her geriatric Stuebben.
    It works ok for her!
    The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
    Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
    Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
    The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

    Comment


    • #3
      It doesn't need knee rolls, but it does need to help your position. Some riders suffer from "creepy knees" and it's easier to find a saddle with knee rolls to help keep your knees down then to try to force them down constantly.
      http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

      Comment


      • #4
        No!

        I went through the same thing. Had my trainer at the time talk me into the current fad saddle with big knee rolls and a deep seat. My current trainer quite correctly moved me back to a Stubben Tristan and I'm riding better and can actually feel my horse underneath me now! Stick with what you are comfortable with.

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree ride in any saddle you like
          - but then I read this:
          I don't see how keeping the horse from lifting his head during a transition
          I suspect your lovely horse is running into something about that saddle (or you?) during the transition: he ignores it most of the time, but then gets a jabbing reminder (during transistion)
          Give some other saddles a decent trial - they don't need to be full of blocks & knee rolls in order to fit your horse differently.

          Since you mention arab, I'd start with Lovatt & Rickettes (as they make alot of saddles that fit arabs) ... or maybe just a newer Passier.

          Comment


          • #6
            It's great if you like your saddle, but some saddles really do put you in the wrong position. I would take my coaches advice and at least consider looking at new saddles.
            https://www.youtube.com/user/jealoushe

            Comment


            • #7
              They could be right

              I have been and known many people comfortable in their saddle but not riding well in their favorite saddle. From the post there is no way to know if this is the case. I have used a lightly padded old dressage saddle as a multi purpose saddle and it worked becuse it was not stuffed to place me in one position. In general it allowed me to place myself in the "correct" position for training my horse in dressage, and it allowed me to shorten stirrups and ride out on trail or ride shorter on green horses. That said I DID place myself in a correct position for dressage as I had the strength from riding well and frequently and the understanding to know where the right seat was to do that...the saddle did not place me...but it also was a well designed saddle that allowed a good position. Some saddles do not allow a correct position for dressage but the PS Baum should...a lot of all purpose saddles or cheap off market dressage saddles do not. If you are riding correctly in that saddle then use it as likely a modern heavily constructed dressage saddle will not allow you the flexibility in your seat you need to do your sports. However if you do not ride correctly in the saddle then you need to improve your seat regardless of the saddle you use...they are not the same issue. With good dressage you can change the way your horse travels to improve his gaits to be a better endurance horse...strengthen the top line and improve the use of the hindquarter and the ability of the front to get out of the way of the drive from behind. PatO

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Rosem View Post
                It's a 1960s vintage PS-Baum which suits me* and the horse** just fine. However Trainer and hubby are ganging up on me and telling me that my saddle 'needs' knee rolls that the saddle puts me in the wrong position** too brown too flat too out of style.


                no they dont - but

                a crooked rider makes a crooked horse
                a crooked saddle makes a crooked rider makes a crooked horse

                this effects you position hence why trianers not happy bunnies


                Answer me straight up...Does a saddle 'need' knee rolls? for the rider to have the correct position?

                nope see above

                What is correct? Perhaps riding styles have styles changed in the 45 years?

                no but as there is but you have had this saddle a long time no doubt and used it on other horses one saddle does not fit all neddies

                Does anyone have links to videos of winning dressage riders from the 60s so I can reference them?


                *The seat is rock hard maybe the men are just wimps wanting me to buy a pillow in case they want to hop on my horse.

                rock hard means its so old its flat and hard as nails, which does effect the way of going on your horse
                think if its hard to sit on then its hard on the horses back as well so no doubt uncomfortable for him now add your weight and he has to counter balance that awful saddle and you,and if one tilts becuase ones not in the right position then jabbing in the mouth happens as the horse will no doubt compliain by hollowing up and your answer is to snatch him in the gob as one tilts then one hanging on the head end as one isnt sitting central to the saddle so there fore horse
                has to object ------- see below



                **The tree was adjusted last year and flocked to fit my arab - don't plan on showing dressage (which they both do) my goal was always endurance - I don't see how keeping the horse from lifting his head during a transition would matter on a 50 mile ride.
                by lifting its head as counter weighting - so objection as its in discomfort

                trianers are correct
                you need a different and one that not flat on the withers straight on the horses back the saddle doesnt fit your horse- simple

                time for you to get some dosh out and take your trainer to a mastercraft men or tack shop and buy a saddle that fits your horse
                if you dont your horse will suffer from back pain/ache and possible have a badback for life long- means he cant be used, do you and your horse a favour as its him that carries you to enjoy your freedom and hobby then make your horse happy and get a decent saddle that fit hims if you love him

                Comment


                • #9
                  can you find a saddle to borrow (from a friend, from a tack shop) that fits your horse and see if that changes anything for you &/or your horse?

                  I am with the crowd who aren't too quick to replace a trusted, tried-and-true saddle unless there's a real need. How can you know if there's a real need unless you ride your horse in a different saddle, right?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I too would borrow a saddle and get some photos while riding in it to compare.


                    I let go o my older on and boyohboy my seat has improved quite a bit
                    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
                    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Well my trainer brought his late model possibly a keiffer and I wasn't real thrilled with it, Felt too locked in I have only ridden in one aussie saddle and hated it and the keiffer or whatever it was felt just the same so cross whatever it was off the list of potentials replacement saddles.

                      However there may be more than a slight possibility that I am riding wrong. Maybe I am concentrating so much on positioning in just the right way so the trainer approves that the horse tenses up himself.

                      Goeslike- In American english* 'Reflocked' means pull all the old wool out, dispose and replace with new wool, stuff extra to suit the individual horse.
                      'Fitted'- means you pull out or add extra wool to fit the horse.
                      Not trying to belittle but there is a slight difference

                      After saddlework to the horse it should have had the same feel that a new saddle would from the tree down it was the same as a modern saddle.
                      I'm used to the upper of the saddle, it fits me and the tree isn't twisted I am sure that short being hit by lightning it has a few more decades left in it.

                      In the horses head throwing defense he has had maybe 20-30hours with someone on his back and that would be a generous estimate. Plus he is an a-rab (Now what did I have going through my mind when I picked a breed like that for endurance?) and this one thinks he is a saddlebred, he may not make the cut for endurance so at least he has something to fall back on.

                      *It's been 236 years of slang plus other countries words thrown into the mix. Just when do we qualify for our language to be called American, Yank Speech or whatever.

                      Did find a youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5IKb5Cu2ok
                      Same shape of saddle but I am nowhere the rider he is. Lovely horse though.
                      Last edited by Rosem; Jun. 14, 2012, 09:14 PM.
                      Teach your child to love riding and they will never have money for drugs.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I am with those who say, it won't hurt to try a couple of different saddles. I just replaced my saddle, due to some fitting issues for my horse, but discovered in the process that it was SOOOO much easier for me to ride effectively in a different saddle. I had no idea that my saddle was affecting me so much.

                        That being said, that if you decide that the best option for you and your horse is your current saddle, don't let your trainers talk you into something different. A good trainer should be able to work with what saddle works for you. My trainer doesn't particularly like my saddle, but begrudgingly admits that it puts me into a much better position.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Saddles made that long ago did not have wide enough channels. Also, have you ever had the saddle reflocked or the tree checked?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I know a certain rider who treasures her ancient Steuben. She can't stand my County. Hers puts her in a chair seat but it is comfortable for her. Have you seen pictures or videos of your riding?
                            I wasn't always a Smurf
                            Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
                            "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
                            The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Rosem View Post
                              Well my trainer brought his late model possibly a keiffer and I wasn't real thrilled with it,
                              Ummmm, trainer, man, beloved Kieffer suits manly seat bones - very few Kieffers that are beloved of men trainers are equally loved by their female students (there are Kieffers that women like, they just tend to be different models)

                              In the horses head throwing defense he has had maybe 20-30hours with someone on his back and that would be a generous estimate.
                              OK get back to us next year - if he's still throwing his head in the canter transition, find some other saddles for him to try.
                              I jumped on this as I watched FP distinguish between 2 apparantly well fitting saddles the other night - one got the defensive head fling for every canter transition, the other saddle got the horsie version of thumbs up
                              (guess which saddle the rider preferred)

                              Plus he is an a-rab (Now what did I have going through my mind when I picked a breed like that for endurance?) and this one thinks he is a saddlebred, he may not make the cut for endurance so at least he has something to fall back on.
                              They just take time to work into the job, that's all.

                              After saddlework to the horse it should have had the same feel that a new saddle would from the tree down it was the same as a modern saddle.
                              As long as the tree & gullet channel suit him, all should be good (no idea what FP objects to in the saddles for which he declares I object, he even chose one that was too narrow over another saddle that seemed fine - perhaps he is actually a County Secret Agent )

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Justice~for~Horses View Post
                                Saddles made that long ago did not have wide enough channels. Also, have you ever had the saddle reflocked or the tree checked?
                                No I trailered the horse up, watched the horse being measured, seen the saddler take the horses measurements, him drop the panles, adjust the tree to fit the measurements of the horse, later at saddle pickup show me the old flocking and the added gussets while explaining what he had done....

                                No I just signed for the check and it would all be great....(ironic smile) For the X time the saddle fits the horse.
                                Last edited by Rosem; Jun. 15, 2012, 01:01 AM.
                                Teach your child to love riding and they will never have money for drugs.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  if the saddle was old and wide fitting then it wont fit an arab as they tend to be narrow to medium fit as some have high withers

                                  it might fit your bum in length but might not fit on her back and withers and no matter how much flocking is taken in or out and adding gullets surgests to me that hes trying to make it narrow so its higher of her back

                                  but this isnt not working as the horse lifts her head when your on her
                                  now wehn lunging the horse will probably show no signs of lifting and flinging her head
                                  as your not on her with your weight as soon as you are then she has to counter balance herself as shes uncomfortable so objects and flings her head about

                                  and yes freind i understand fully what flocking is or isnt lol

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I bet the panels are wide enough. Saddles of that vintage had wide panels, at least the ones I have seen (which is, quite a few - as a working student for a barn that had lots of '60-70's vintage saddles). It was later - late 80's? 90's? - that for some bizarre reason, even the big, established saddle makers came out with those narrow, rounded panels. Guess they tossed actual equine conformation right out the window! At least in more recent years, from what I've seen they appear to have figured out that horses' backs need wide panels.

                                    I'm like OP -- I hate being confined in a saddle. I object to high cantle, high pommel, big knee rolls and thigh blocks. So, if I were you I'd pursue trying out saddles that fit your horse, fit you, and are not so confining -- just so you can say you gave the saddle quest a fair trial if you decide to keep using "Old Faithful."

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by goeslikestink View Post
                                      if the saddle was old and wide fitting then it wont fit an arab as they tend to be narrow to medium fit as some have high withers
                                      Are you an expert on every horse you have never seen?

                                      My horse has the same back as Piaff seen @ :12 -> :17

                                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCrHjhpukHs

                                      If you regard this as narrow to medium then what would you regard as a wide back?

                                      A PS baum tree is adjustable I know it I was there and watched the saddler shape it. http://www.passier.com/index.php?id=77&L=1


                                      meupatdoes- Thank you for the heads up about the blog. I feel the same way about my old ps baum as Catherine feels about her stubben for the same reason, very little between the rider and horse.
                                      Last edited by Rosem; Jun. 15, 2012, 11:23 AM.
                                      Teach your child to love riding and they will never have money for drugs.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Apparently you do not trust what your trainer has to say.

                                        If so, then find someone you do trust.

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