• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Dr. Dieter Plewa about Totilas and German Dressage

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Dr. Dieter Plewa about Totilas and German Dressage

    << Discussions within the scene, consisting of trainers, riders and judges are just as important as discussions with the public, represented by the press or on Internet.. Such discussions are useful but only if it is objective and are also conducted on the basis of sound technical knowledge. I miss the knowledge part in these public forum discussions, where everything is represented as -black-or-white.Especially the polemical criticism of certain "training methods" without any science or expertise to back up the accusations. >>
    The rules that we have now were set up by the governing bodies in dressage. They allow low, deep and round for a certain short period and without the use of excessive force. These rules are based on scientific research and people shouldn't condemn this as long as there isn't any research available that proof otherwise.


    Full article (in German)

    http://www.reiterjournal.com/rj-aktu...//abp/159.html

  • #2
    So funny I had my first lesson since January yesterday with a German trainer and it was LOVELY, but I was so unused to the "Keep her head more up, ya? We all see she is obedient, she needs to stay above more and open, ya?"

    LOVELY lengthenings after a bit of that

    However, she admits the round work and down and low is important too, but true to nature she would rather see the uphill frame MOST of the ride.

    Coming from ALWAYS Dutch I was a bit nervous about the new training but my seat I have a feeling will get some serious overhaul in a good way since that is another thing she really focuses on.

    If you are lucky you can find someone who is more "classic" without the ridged riding, and maybe still have want for the LDR.

    For now I do believe the best is to ride the step your given with whatever will work best.

    I just want the two to just marry already and have little Dutch/German babies that ride like Carl Hester!
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

    Comment


    • #3
      Imagine my surprise when I took some lessons with a "classical" instructor and even he told me to warm my horse up in a deep frame. I mean, way BTV! He had everyone else doing long and low with nose poked out. He just explained that my particular horse needs to warm-up deep in order to move and loosen her loin. He was pretty matter-of-fact that her conformation and movement was different than the other horses and this is what she needs. I will admit that it made me feel better about the advice I had received from my regular German trainer also. So, really.....and it makes all the sense in the world.....each horse needs something a little different depending on conformation, movement, temperment, etc. Arbitrary decisions on our part about what is "right", without taking the horse into consideration, is pretty short-sighted and silly. This rush to condemn reasonable and often very beneficial training methods is the mark of an armchair rider, in my opinion.

      Comment


      • #4
        QUOTE: The rules that we have now were set up by the governing bodies in dressage. They allow low, deep and round for a certain short period and without the use of excessive force. These rules are based on scientific research and people shouldn't condemn this as long as there isn't any research available that proof otherwise.

        There is no scientific reserach done on either method that really "proves" one or the other "method" to be useful or not/ harmful or not and/or uncomfortable for the horse or not, so that's kind of a silly statement.

        As for confusing "rolleur" with "long & low"....I think that IS the sign of an armchair rider...there is no force with the latter -- the horse is simply stretching it's topline while still moving forward.

        Big difference.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
          QUOTE: The rules that we have now were set up by the governing bodies in dressage. They allow low, deep and round for a certain short period and without the use of excessive force. These rules are based on scientific research and people shouldn't condemn this as long as there isn't any research available that proof otherwise.

          There is no scientific reserach done on either method that really "proves" one or the other "method" to be useful or not/ harmful or not and/or uncomfortable for the horse or not, so that's kind of a silly statement.

          As for confusing "rolleur" with "long & low"....I think that IS the sign of an armchair rider...there is no force with the latter -- the horse is simply stretching it's topline while still moving forward.

          Big difference.
          An emphatic yes indeed! Long and Low and allows a natural rounding of the topline and is also accompanied with forward with the rider encouraging engagement of the hidnquarters. This connects the back to the mouth.

          True rollkur is very tight with the chin much too close to the chest. Long and low is more open with the top of the neck arched, but the throatlatch is still open.

          I've trained both Dutch and German. While techniques between the two trainers were slightly different (and neither were rollkur), the basis behind the philosophies was similar. Horses that tend to naturally be really "UP" through the neck should be ridden lots long and low and also up as long as up is also engaged. Those horses that tend to prefer low should be ridden more up with particular emphasis on engagement of the hindquarter. All horses need to move and vary in between the two frequently throughout the lesson, but each start at one place and should finish in the same place.
          Practice! Patience! Persistence!
          http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/
          https://www.facebook.com/MariposaSportHorses/

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            There is no scientific reserach done on either method that really "proves" one or the other "method" to be useful or not/ harmful or not and/or uncomfortable for the horse or not, so that's kind of a silly statement.
            The silly statement comes from you.

            Please add "As far as I know" at the beginning of your text .

            Like Carl Hester wrote in his latest column for H&H :

            'While all have - and are entitled to - their opinions, very few are qualified to give them'

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by LanceBehind View Post
              The silly statement comes from you.

              Please add "As far as I know" at the beginning of your text .

              Like Carl Hester wrote in his latest column for H&H :

              'While all have - and are entitled to - their opinions, very few are qualified to give them'
              This, with two !!!!!
              Siegi Belz
              www.stalleuropa.com
              2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
              Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

              Comment


              • #8
                'While all have - and are entitled to - their opinions, very few are qualified to give them'

                Amen.
                www.svhanoverians.com

                "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Once you sign up on this forum with your alt, you automatically qualify. Anyone know what alt Carl Hester uses here?
                  "No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well said, Lance.

                    Neither rollkur nor long or low are beneficial if the horse is forced into the position. I've seen more bad long and low than bad rollkur. I see far too many People who think that it's okay to have the neck long and low and nose out, but with the horse pulling itself along with its shoulders, a tight back, and hind legs trailing out behind; no lifting or swinging of the back whatsoever. There is a real misconception and misuse of BOTH techniques.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I wish...

                      If wishes were horses...
                      that people would talk less about head and neck and more about THE BACK1
                      breeder of Mercury!

                      remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Carol Ames View Post
                        If wishes were horses...
                        that people would talk less about head and neck and more about THE BACK1
                        Good point. They all work in conjunction, but I've seen waaaay more people worrying just about headset rather than the back, shoulder, hind etc.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The quoted article by Dr. Plewa should be required reading for all dressage riders and folks discussing the sport.
                          Siegi Belz
                          www.stalleuropa.com
                          2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                          Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Did anyone read the recent article where Hilda Gurney commented that today's horses are ridden much better through the back - she, too, believes LDR does have a place in training and suppling. Riding a horse "up and tight" isn't any better then forcing a horse "deep and round" - we, as riders, need to help our horses be supple and be able to change their positions to keep them supple.

                            Of course, the GOAL is to ride with poll as the highest point, but the goal is also to have a supple horse, a back that is capable of lifting, and that means we can't always go around poll high in a fixed position.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MysticOakRanch View Post
                              Did anyone read the recent article where Hilda Gurney commented that today's horses are ridden much better through the back - she, too, believes LDR does have a place in training and suppling. Riding a horse "up and tight" isn't any better then forcing a horse "deep and round" - we, as riders, need to help our horses be supple and be able to change their positions to keep them supple.

                              Of course, the GOAL is to ride with poll as the highest point, but the goal is also to have a supple horse, a back that is capable of lifting, and that means we can't always go around poll high in a fixed position.
                              Agreed.

                              Like, when we watch a gymnast do their butterfly crunches in their routine... LOL Even though they probably do these things 5000-1 difficult vault, it is not included in the result's for show.

                              Galloping the lane is also not included in upper level test... Should we avoid that as well? Should I make sure all hay stays above ground so that the poll is highest then too?

                              True results are seen in muscle when you variate... Period.
                              ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
                              http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by MysticOakRanch View Post
                                Did anyone read the recent article where Hilda Gurney commented that today's horses are ridden much better through the back - she, too, believes LDR does have a place in training and suppling. Riding a horse "up and tight" isn't any better then forcing a horse "deep and round" - we, as riders, need to help our horses be supple and be able to change their positions to keep them supple.

                                Of course, the GOAL is to ride with poll as the highest point, but the goal is also to have a supple horse, a back that is capable of lifting, and that means we can't always go around poll high in a fixed position.
                                Yep. It is REALLY easy to get the poll as the highest point if you let your horse invert. Just like it's REALLY easy to get a horse's neck rounded if you have it on the forehand and not moving in its back. Neither is the solution to suppleness overall, and while I would rather see a horse on the edge of coming above the bit to one on the edge of coming behind the bit as a personal preference, I prefer suppleness, swinging backs and proper use of the hind end over any head position.


                                My new favorite noun-as-verb: Variate.
                                If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
                                -meupatdoes

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Mike Matson View Post
                                  Once you sign up on this forum with your alt, you automatically qualify. Anyone know what alt Carl Hester uses here?

                                  Comment

                                  Working...
                                  X