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Obnoxious coaching by a reader before the bells rings?

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  • Obnoxious coaching by a reader before the bells rings?

    Just curious, last weekend at a show I noticed a lot of readers/trainers loudly coaching their students in the area outside the ring as they awaited the judge to ring the bell. It was very disruptive and chaotic because 3 rings were layed out together. I was in the middle of my test and heard the reader next to me yelling "go,go,go, tap, tap, tap! " I was so caught off guard that I swung my head around to see what was going on. I was surprised that the judges let this continue on. Isn't this ilegal? Wouldn't it be considered "unauthorized assistance"? I couldn't find anything about it in the usef rule book, but it seemed really unprofessional and weird..

  • #2
    My understanding is that you aren't riding the test until you enter the arena, therefore they can give direction up until that point.
    Coaching loud enough that it distracts the other arena, that's just rude.

    Comment


    • #3
      I can imagine what the judges must think; while they of course judge the test, impressions are still made -- they must be distracted while writing comments for the previous rider. That must be very disconcerting while riding in your own ring. I have always felt you are being judged as you circle, a judge is forming an opinion about what they will see as soon as you enter, although they don't start evaluating until they see the first movement of the test. I know when I have learner-judged, I try not to notice the trainers and various other "riders" until the rider to be judged actually enters, but if they surround themselves with drama, noise, and spectacle -- it's hard to be unhuman and miss it all....
      Proud & Permanent Student Of The Long Road
      Read me: EN (http://eventingnation.com/author/annemarch/) and HJU (http://horsejunkiesunited.com/author/holly-covey/)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Passage2 View Post
        Just curious, last weekend at a show I noticed a lot of readers/trainers loudly coaching their students in the area outside the ring as they awaited the judge to ring the bell. It was very disruptive and chaotic because 3 rings were layed out together. I was in the middle of my test and heard the reader next to me yelling "go,go,go, tap, tap, tap! " I was so caught off guard that I swung my head around to see what was going on. I was surprised that the judges let this continue on. Isn't this ilegal? Wouldn't it be considered "unauthorized assistance"? I couldn't find anything about it in the usef rule book, but it seemed really unprofessional and weird..
        perfectly legal until said rider enters at A

        uncouth - definately (if they feel the need to coach then do it quietly)
        Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

        The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”

        Comment


        • #5
          And guess what, the judge WILL think...hmmm, horse maybe not on aids??? It can backfire. And if it too distracting the TD can be advised to be there BEFORE the person's next ride and tell the reader to perhaps learn to whisper.
          I.D.E.A. yoda

          Comment


          • #6
            It may be discourteous of the other riders/coaches but I think as a competitor, it is still to your advantage to be able to tune them out because that won't be the only distraction while you are riding.

            A couple of weeks ago while I was riding my test, I kept hearing the bells coming off and kept thinking it was for me (and getting really confused about it) and in reality it was the rider in the next ring getting off course. I know my ring uses a whistle but when the bell was so close and loud that it felt coming from my own ring, it is still quite disconcerting. There is nothing I can do though - except trying to tune it out.

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            • #7
              I always tell my students that they are making an impression, or lack thereof, from the moment they start warming up outside of the ring. *IF* I do tell them anything before they enter, it's always quietly and always out of earshot of the judge. I always tell them to no matter what, politely say "Good Morning" or "Good Afternoon" as they go past "C" and tell the scribe their number as a courtesy. The big thing that I want to impress upon my students is to be absolutely courteous and respectful anytime they are anywhere near the judge.

              As far as coaching before entering - I noticed something at a show this past weekend:

              I was warming up my young TB before my Dressage test at an Event Derby. The warm-up was right next to the Dressage ring and during a break in the action in the ring I noticed the judge watching several of the riders in the warm-up, myself included. Not only did it make ME want to ride better but it also made me realize that a judges opinions can be formed LONG before the rider even begins riding around the ring before the test. Furthermore, if you are a professional and you are coaching at a competition, how YOU behave can affect your students and how others perceive them. If you are loud, obnoxious, or otherwise rude - your students are going to get a bad reputation as well. So while you may want to give your student every last bit of help before their test, remember that disrupting others in the process is actually doing everyone, including your student, a great disservice.

              My feeling about doing a lot of coaching at shows is this: If I have to coach THAT loudly and THAT much at show, then maybe the student shouldn't be there!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by fargonefarm View Post
                I always tell my students that they are making an impression, or lack thereof, from the moment they start warming up outside of the ring. ...

                I noticed the judge watching several of the riders in the warm-up, myself included. Not only did it make ME want to ride better but it also made me realize that a judges opinions can be formed LONG before the rider even begins riding around the ring before the test.
                While I agree with most of your post, the judge's job is to score the ride. Not the pre-ride warm up or what the horse does before the bell rings.

                I once had a horse throw an absolute fit at her first dressage show. The warm up was outside and the show ring inside. She wasn't used to being in a ring alone and when the previous exhibitor and horse left, all hell broke loose. She spun, side passed, backed up (at a trot!), screaming her lungs out the whole time. As I went whirling by, I saw the judge looking at us, wide-eyed. I considered excusing ourselves, but figured what the hell. I paid my $$, let's do this thing.

                Bell rang, we entered, mare found her brain and we did a decent test, for which we received a score of 52, the lowest score I've ever gotten. And believe me, I've ridden tests much more poorly than that one.

                Judging from what other people told me, I'm sure the pre-test "performance" was taken into consideration. Now, I didn't expect brownie points for riding a mare in raging heat who was also herd-bound at her very first show. But I didn't expect to be penalized for what happened before we began our test.
                __________________________
                "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
                the best day in ten years,
                you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Part of learning to compete is to shut out everything but what is happening in your arena. As long as no coaching goes on once the rider enters the arena it's perfectly legal for the coach to give last minute encouragement--loud or not.

                  Does loud coaching before going down center line effect scores--who knows, Probably depends on the judge. But we had Axel Steiner do a clinic at our barn and he said that most judges don't have an opinion until the first extention once you track right or left after halt salute.

                  Best thing is to stop worrying about what is going on in the arena next to you and focus on you and make you horse focus on you in your own arena. If you look and are distracted turning your head your horse will follow suit.

                  Frankly I have never seen a judge watching the warm up with much interest. They are too busy judging and when they get a break they are up getting some refreshment or lunch.

                  Most of the time I ride by the judge on my tour around the outside they are still finishing up scoring the last ride.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Big whoop. We are riding horses in a show. There are bound to be noises and distractions. It's totally legal. Get your horse and yourself used to riding in loud places and get over it. It's not all about you.

                    Oh, wait, that used to be my signature when I claimed to be the ultimate DQ. "It's all about ME, ME, ME!!!" If you're a major DQ, then maybe it is all about you...at least in your own mind.

                    Seriously, it's just not an issue. Let other people do what they do. You just ride your horse and your test. If you're that worried about what other people are doing around you when you go in the ring, you're focused on the wrong thing!
                    Last edited by Velvet; May. 22, 2012, 04:20 PM.
                    "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It does make an impression on the judge & not a good one. Unless you're at a schooling show.

                      I've seen judges several times loudly chide the trainer for giving last minute schooling before rider enters A (after bell had been rung). In fact last time, judge told trainer if she said one more word to rider, she would be eliminated from the test.

                      You want to know the things that piss the judges off - scribe for awhile at a show.....

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        NorCal, if a judge eliminates a rider for anything that happens BEFORE their entry at A or AFTER their final salute, that judge is not following the rules.

                        Maybe they don't like that kind of behavior but that sort of threat is empty and such elimination would not be upheld should there be a protest.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          We have one of "those coaches" show up at the barn schooling shows occasionally. She's not only loud; she uses the periods before and after the test, while her riders are waiting for the bell, to berate them, yell at them, tell them they'd better not "ride like cr**" etc. The moment they're done, she starts in on them again. BTW, these are kids/young teens. I cannot see how this could make a good impression on the judge.
                          You have to have experiences to gain experience.

                          1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
                            And guess what, the judge WILL think...hmmm, horse maybe not on aids??? It can backfire. And if it too distracting the TD can be advised to be there BEFORE the person's next ride and tell the reader to perhaps learn to whisper.
                            This is so far from being ok I am surprised that anyone who judged would admit formulating a score before the bell was rung.
                            http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rebecca yount View Post
                              NorCal, if a judge eliminates a rider for anything that happens BEFORE their entry at A or AFTER their final salute, that judge is not following the rules.

                              Maybe they don't like that kind of behavior but that sort of threat is empty and such elimination would not be upheld should there be a protest.
                              Where does it say that the caller is allowed to do anything but read the test?

                              That's what they are there for. Period. Not anything else - even if the "caller" happens to be the rider's trainer. I'm under the impression it is considered "unauthorized assistance" and that is where the judge felt she has the authority to eliminate the rider.

                              DR122 10. Unauthorized Assistance is forbidden under penalty of elimination. Any intervention by a third
                              party, including members of the Jury, with the object of facilitating the task of the competitor,
                              including voice, signals, remounting, catching a horse inside the ring, etc., is illegal assistance.
                              Except in the case of an error, any outside assistance provided by or authorized by a member of
                              the Jury will result in elimination. A member of the Jury may not discuss a ride with a competitor
                              before the bell or after the final salute.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by NorCalDressage View Post
                                Where does it say that the caller is allowed to do anything but read the test?

                                That's what they are there for. Period. Not anything else - even if the "caller" happens to be the rider's trainer. I'm under the impression it is considered "unauthorized assistance" and that is where the judge felt she has the authority to eliminate the rider.

                                DR122 10. Unauthorized Assistance is forbidden under penalty of elimination. Any intervention by a third
                                party, including members of the Jury, with the object of facilitating the task of the competitor,
                                including voice, signals, remounting, catching a horse inside the ring, etc., is illegal assistance.
                                Except in the case of an error, any outside assistance provided by or authorized by a member of
                                the Jury will result in elimination. A member of the Jury may not discuss a ride with a competitor
                                before the bell or after the final salute.
                                You need to brush up on the rules. You are quoting them for when the rider is IN THE RING RIDING THEIR TEST. Outside the ring is not being scored, is not a part of the test, and coaching is allowed. There is nothing that says your reader cannot be a coach and cannot coach you before you enter the ring and start riding your test. There's nothing that says they cannot talk to you when your test is done, either. When you are riding the actual test, that's when they can only read the test as written.
                                "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Velvet is correct. You may coach outside the arena. We usually start reading once the bell is rung and then stop coaching.
                                  Humans don’t mind duress, in fact they thrive on it. What they mind is not feeling necessary. –Sebastian Junger

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Not for nothing but if you still need that much coaching as you wait for the bell, perhaps you are not really ready to head down the center line?

                                    A whispered reminder to smile or breathe or relax - fine, but "go go go, tap tap tap" ? Legal? - yup. Couth? not so much.
                                    bad decisions make good stories

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      kind of related - but can we PULEEZE go back to the time - eons ago - where a rider didnt need a caller? it is so annoying to have to listen and have to listen to however many there are for however many rings are going!

                                      so lame! learn your test for petes sake!

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by mbm View Post
                                        kind of related - but can we PULEEZE go back to the time - eons ago - where a rider didnt need a caller? it is so annoying to have to listen and have to listen to however many there are for however many rings are going!

                                        so lame! learn your test for petes sake!
                                        Agree. I call tests for a friend if mine and I told her last weekend I think her rides would be better if she didn't use me (she got a 69 and change at second three, so it's not like she's a beginner). The mental preparation us different.

                                        Comment

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