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Pricing question

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  • #41
    Originally posted by Petstorejunkie View Post
    confirmed how? regional level? CDI? what?
    most horses I'm seeing from 11-13yrs WITH declared maintenance, and recognized scores (but not a record as a young rider winner, etc) are going nationally around $35-40k
    I totally disagree. Show me some sale ads (PM me if you wish) of competent PSG horses between 11-13 with current show records that are selling for 40k. I would be more than interested in buying one. I see horses 17 years old selling for 60k and more. I don't even think you can get a decent 3rd level horse for 40k. Actually, 40k doesn't buy much quality.


    • #42
      Originally posted by Justice~for~Horses View Post
      I totally disagree. Show me some sale ads (PM me if you wish) of competent PSG horses between 11-13 with current show records that are selling for 40k. I would be more than interested in buying one. I see horses 17 years old selling for 60k and more. I don't even think you can get a decent 3rd level horse for 40k. Actually, 40k doesn't buy much quality.
      Ditto. And, trust me, I have looked for the 40K PSG horse. They are either incorrect in their training, have serious soundness issues, or both.

      Dudley, I think I know your horse, and I think he is very fairly priced for his training and quality. The fact that he's amateur friendly adds to his value considerably. I would leave the price alone and just explain what you have explained on this board. It will help if you are willing to make your vet records available to the potential buyer. If I could call Tufts (or whoever) and speak directly with them, it would make a difference to my purchasing decision. Most riders shopping for a horse like yours are either experienced or they have a trainer helping to guide their purchase. They know they aren't going to find the perfect horse in this price range, so it's a matter of whether the horse suits the rider and if they are comfortable with doing the necessary maintenance.

      Goeslikestink…step away from the crack cocaine.


      • #43
        I know of a couple of 30-40ks that have scores barely at 1st level. If this horse is confirmed then the price range is very much on target.

        Remember people will always offer to have a friend fix your car as well... The deals ARE there but quality plus reputable and honest usually is fair market value at least and I think that is exactly where dudley is at.
        ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~


        • #44
          Without seeing video, trying the horse, knowing more details (including age, show record, size, breeding, etc), it is hard to really assess a reasonable price. But economy is starting to pick up, horse prices are getting a bit better. Two years ago, I saw some buyers picking up real deals on ammie-friendly teenage PSG horses that needed maintenance (under $30k!). More recently, those prices are higher - more in the $35k to $70k range, depending on age, quality, ease of riding, etc. There is a huge difference in price between buying a 13 year old horse and an 18 year old horse. There is also a huge difference in price between a horse that you can eke out your silver scores on (scores 58 to 62%) versus a horse that is scoring mid to high 60s, and a horse who is competitive at larger shows.

          I don't consider hock injections to be anything more then reasonable maintanence for ANY horse that is over 10-12 years of age and showing 4th level or above (aka at a level that really requires collection).

          One point that Stink makes that is spot-on (not necessarily an issue with OP, but for anyone considering buying such a horse) - you WILL need a trainer if you are buying a schoolmaster to learn and move up. Any rider can quickly bring a horse down to their riding level OP - I think you pick a price that you are comfortable with, and if you get no nibbles in 60 days, lower the price. Also include "reasonable offers considered" in the ad wording.


          • #45
            why get personal?

            Originally posted by Justice~for~Horses View Post
            When is the last time you had flexions and xrays done on your horses, Chisamba? Did they all flex negative? How about the rest of you?
            My twenty one year old mare flexed completely sound at her last evaluation, as i was showing fourth level and training PSG. SHe had never had injections in any joint whatsoever.

            However I view this comment is simply being a nasty personal dig and unnecessary to the conversation, because I was discussing from the perspective of a buyer. If i take a client to look at a horse, and it has to have injections both front and back to maintain soundness, i would try very hard to find one who did not require this.

            A person can ask any amount of money for a horse. If you are lucky you will find the right buyer who has that much money, and wants your horse.

            If a horse flexes unsound, and there is no visible reason in the x rays for that unsoundness, then I start to suspect HSD, and would chose, at that price range, to run ultrasound diagnostics.

            The OP asked for an opinion on the price of the horse, and I gave my opinion as the the value. This has nothing to do with my opinion regarding the care and maintenance of the horse, which appears to be of high quality.


            • #46
              Originally posted by Perfect Pony View Post
              I'd hope whatever you spend you can afford to throw away, and you are prepared for a short amount of time with them competing or serviceably sound.

              Buyer beware. I always wonder why these horses are for sale in their teens. I figure the owners want the $$ while they think they can get it and don't want to deal with what comes next.
              I think the money is only "thrown away" if the buyer doesn't have a clear plan and a good trainer to help them implement it. If a person can afford this horse and has the goal of becoming really proficient at PSG level (maybe higher), than they can view this as an "educational expense." IMO, money spent on education is only wasted if the person doesn't take full advantage of the opportunity. In this case, that means having a competent trainer to guide you.

              Typically, these horses are for sale in their teens because the rider has gained the needed experience to bring along a younger horse and should not be interpreted as there being something wrong with the horse.
              Last edited by suzy; May. 21, 2012, 04:49 PM.


              • #47
                Friend just turned down $90K on a horse doing solid 4th from someone who knows horse will not vet but is working very soundly on minimal maintainence.
                If your horse is a good mover, not even world beater, just decent, I'd think he'd be priced in the $100K range for a good PSG horse. Just my experience.
                Producing horses with gentle minds & brilliant movement!


                • #48
                  I wish I could afford a PSG horse! I bet it would make my struggles with flying changes a tiny bit easier than on my "owned since she was a yearling" 8 yr WB. I bet I could still mess them up though! I eventually will master it, I get good changes in lessons, tense up and get them late in shows...then get all tense at home and continue to work myself into a tizzy on ruining my horse...then I remember, I'm an amateur and am not looking to sell her anytime soon, so she's mine to ruin.

                  As for any horse endeavor (educational or otherwise), it is all "throwing money away".

                  Don't go into debt for horses and don't spend so much as to put the family finances on shaky ground, are my only personal rules. I suspect that $$ figure is different for most.


                  • #49
                    The level of maintenance described is on par with what I think of as typical for a horse of that description. I'd say the price might be closer to the 60k end of the range but especially for New England, I think your price is about right.


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by suzy View Post
                      They are either incorrect in their training, have serious soundness issues, or both.
                      That, I will attest to... but I'm picky when it comes to correct training.
                      I've been searching lately for both
                      1. 2-4yr old prospects
                      2. middle aged 4th/PSG horses
                      and out of ALL of Florida... I've found 3 worth spending some time looking at.

                      Just on the first page of dressage daily filtered 30-50k there are 5 PSG level or higher horses listed, some of which boasting scores at PSG above 70%
                      chaque pas est fait ensemble


                      • #51
                        When you go and look at/vet a PSG schoolmaster in the 30-50k range, you will find out why they aren't in the 60-100k range.

                        There is always a reason. Always. It will be apparent when you get there. If not then, when you vet.

                        From my experience over the past four years looking and buying, OP, I would say that the lower end of your range is a likely sale, but you don't need to go lower unless you want to (faster sale, just the right buyer, etc.) I saw YR PSG schoolmaster horses priced higher--90k--at big sale barns, so you can figure the seller's commission was added in there. I felt they were overpriced and considered making an offer on one of them but decided on another horse.

                        In dressage warmbloods, starting from the base price of whatever innate talent a horse has, I figure 20k a level (showing) from 2nd up, in a reasonably talented horse of suitable age and soundness. That's calculated from shopping experience, not from my personal opinion. It seemed to be about the way pricing went.
                        Ring the bells that still can ring
                        Forget your perfect offering
                        There is a crack in everything
                        That's how the light gets in.


                        • #52
                          My thoughts, exactly. I don't know how many times I've seen people riding around on their "100% sound, needs no maintenance" horse......and observed an obvious gait irregularity. There are very, very few horses who can do FEI level work....real FEI level work....with power, bounce, crossing and expression....who don't need a little help to keep their well-used bodies and joints comfortable

                          THIS 1000 times over!!! When I read "no maintenance required" on a teenaged FEI horse that raises a red flag for me for the above mentioned reasons.

                          My totally sound and healthy four year olds are on an Adequan routine , get fish oil, MSM , Glucos supplements ect and are shod to give them maximal support. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!

                          "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by SaddleFitterVA View Post
                            As for any horse endeavor (educational or otherwise), it is all "throwing money away".

                            Don't go into debt for horses and don't spend so much as to put the family finances on shaky ground, are my only personal rules. I suspect that $$ figure is different for most.
                            That was just the point I was trying to make. I wasn't being snarky, maybe sarcastic. Every person I know, whether spending 10k or 100k on a teenage horse was just throwing money on a burning pile, and the vet bills made the horse more expensive to keep than most. I would need millions in the bank to feel comfortable throwing 80k away.
                            On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog


                            • #54
                              It is probably just me, but it occurs to me that to expect horses to breakdown due to their training to become "real" FEI horses...ahem...points to possibly questionable training. Do the horses at SRS routinely breakdown as teenagers or is that just considered a "passaaaaay" training system? Something seems wrong with that picture.


                              • #55
                                Fairthewell, it isn't about the horse breaking down but about our being realistic and understanding that horses are just like humans as they age--they get a bit stiff and arthritic. And, it varies from one individual to the next as to the degree. We treat ourselves with joint supplements and injections, so why not our horses. Undoubtedly some horses break down due to poor training practices, but I think far more fall into the category of normal aging.


                                • #56
                                  Fairthewell, the other thing you need to realize is that bigger moving horses (which aren't common in the SRS) do incur more wear and tear - it is basic physics. It isn't a matter of breakdown, so much as a matter of maintaining peak athleticism. Many horses can still perform without the maintenance, but they perform BETTER and are more comfortable with hock injections or Adequan, or supplements, or whatever else we provide.

                                  And - how do we know the older SRS horses aren't also receiving that kind of maintenance support?


                                  • #57
                                    This above.

                                    Breaking down is also a far cry from maintanance

                                    However, we cannot kid ourselves. These are ATHLETES that COMPETE, and even with perfect training just the wear and tear of being uber fit and asked to push themselves as with any athlete there will be parts of the body that take the brunt

                                    Luckily we still see Senior horses out there at the tippy top happy healthy and full of life!
                                    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~


                                    • #58
                                      True. I also think horses are drilled longer, harder, and more often these days, as well as being somewhat rushed for competition purposes. Maybe footing plays a part too. 30-40 years ago, we didn't use chiros, tons of supplements, rubber footing, etc., but there were a lot less horses competing (there were, however, big moving horses then as well). Things have, of course, changed; much of it for the better.


                                      • #59
                                        I think that our footing is far superior today than it was even 10 years ago. We also have supplement, joint injections, chiro, massage, magnetic blankets (for those who believe in them), etc. As far as the big moving horses, that is also a much more current phenomenon. Breeders "get" that people want the big fancy movers, so that is what they are breeding for. We are seeing movement in the average warmblood that is equivalent to the best warmbloods of the 70s.