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Collected trot turned canter?

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  • Collected trot turned canter?

    If I am collecting the trot and then getting collected canter when I ask for bend what is happening?
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

  • #2
    Are you asking for collected canter or is the horse breaking?

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      No just asking for a bend. Its not tense and is a really nice canter (her stronger gait) and then I ask her forward out of collection because she trys to almost do it on the spot to match the shorter trot strides (not funny but its cute until I cant stop it).

      So we gor into more of a working canter to working trot to collected then ask for a bend and canter again!
      ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
      http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Ok also I have been told try si to avoid this but a horse just learning baby steps of collection isnt doing it with si too much at once? Or shoukd I start si let her take some collected steps within si?
        ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
        http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

        Comment


        • #5
          Shoulder in is definitely worth a try. You don't have to do too much angle-just position her in a slight shoulder fore/in and you can increase the angle as needed. This way you can safely push the horse forward more forcefully without her getting fast and running. I did a clinic with Debbie McDonald, and she had most of the riders do this at some point.

          When you are starting collection, I find it helpful to do it like weight lifting-collect for a few strides and then swing forward, collect and then swing forward. Keep the feeling of the more forward gait in the collection and the feeling of the collection (engagement) in the more forward gait. This makes it so you aren't putting too much pressure for too long (like resting between sets while weight lfting), and you keep the forward energy in collection, which is absolutely important.

          When you ask for more bend, you are making the exercise harder because the horse has to bring the hindlegs closer together. Just something to be aware of.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            This is exactly what I was thinking so glad I am not completely crazy in my thoughts.

            I will try slight shoulder fore with forward and back reps as you have said but if I am asking collection I have not tried any shoulder in at the same time. Kinda just cheated with straight and super focused on my hanches swinging in as they want to sometimes do at trot.

            I think If I just think slight shoulder in it will help me not to feel like Im asking too much.

            We ONLY do a few steps at a time and then go forward immediately.

            Canter she always offers all kinds of things so we do lots of long rein work as short is easy there... Not correct short mind you, but its getting there.

            Im getting this feeling that collected trot may be the hardest for her to remain supple in and control.
            ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
            http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
              If I am collecting the trot and then getting collected canter when I ask for bend what is happening?
              The key is your hips. To me it sounds you are riding with your lower leg. You ask for bend in collection and that is canter to your horse. Moving outside leg is canter to your horse, no? It sounds that right now you would have difficulty riding shoulder in to travers to shoulder in in trot without breaking to canter. Try to teach your horse to understand trot and canter from your hips, and thighs as well as your lower leg. ANd an effective outside rein. Your horse will understand when he is supposed to trot and bend and move forehand and haunches, and when he is supposed to canter out of a trot movement. More than all, be very patient and do not punish him. Know he is confused and eager. Keep that eagerness.

              Comment


              • #8
                Keep the trot rhythm in your hips. And it can help to count the trot rhythm in your head whenever a horse is confused about whether you are asking for more of something in the trot vs asking for canter.



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                Comment


                • #9
                  HOW are you asking for bend? And for what reason (i.e. starting si or a volte or ???)

                  Sounds like too much inside rein and/or leg is putting the horse's outside shoulder out so it looses balance and canters. Outside rein maintains tempo and governs the gait, so keep the outside connection (or hh).

                  If you are taking about maintaining flexion (i.e. seeing the inside eyelashes) then just keep the inside rein a smidge raised (and keep your outside elbow steady).

                  I think you are mixing up the idea of collection and amplitude, and that you might be holding too much so the horse just departs to regain balance.
                  I.D.E.A. yoda

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    When you are asking for bend...are you applying a little too much outside leg....just a thought.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Yes to above.

                      The hips are tense or something because they are sore (mine) so i know that i need work there.

                      The inside leg when applied for bend was what started the canter BUT

                      The Shoulder in to travers showed me my travers is easy but she did NOT want to shoulder easily at the more collected trot so i am gonna steady it up in reg working trot for now before we approach this again and see if that resolves as well as work on the seat issue...

                      My shoulder in to the left is really a struggle with added collection if you wanna spout some ideas
                      ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
                      http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Sometimes really little things make a big difference...what are your shoulders doing....chin between ears...eyes up and looking forward in direction of travel...and everything that Yoda said...of course.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Are you sure that your collected trot is truly a collected trot and not just a shortened trot that is lacking impulsion? It's a common problem.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Well Im like a little kid with all her things in her hands so she drops some to try the new toy. Lol

                            Ive lost a bunch of stuff in a few short days and my focus is too tunnel vision...

                            I went back to big forward gaits asking for straight straight straight for now.

                            Im going to work on my seat in a lesson soon I hope just a lesson on seat alone which I never do.

                            Then after Im straightned out Im going to try to get my shoulder fore better before we try the collected gait again..
                            ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
                            http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by suzy View Post
                              Are you sure that your collected trot is truly a collected trot and not just a shortened trot that is lacking impulsion? It's a common problem.
                              We only do a few steps right now and I watch out for jog steps. I have not had a problem with lack of impulsion as much as lots of breaks to make sure we stay relaxed.

                              The cantering was a sign i felt of her being eager but i also feel there is some crookedness too... The travers to shoulder fore showed me I could not do it with even the slightest bit of collection.

                              I dont plan on doing this every ride. I planned on doing steps here and there to make it seem like no big deal.

                              It showed me what I need to work on for sure
                              ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
                              http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                What beckzert said. One of my horses does this very thing as an evasion. Your horse is evading the extra work for the inside hind in collected trot by pushing off into canter from the outside hind. Also, make sure to keep your weight over the middle of the horse when turning or bending to avoid over-weighting the inside hind in the collected trot.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  It may also be a case of expecting too much of yourself and your horse too soon. Just give the horse the idea of the movement, reward for any effort offered, and gradually ask for more collection, more bend, more crossover, etc. as the horse gets stronger and better understands what you want.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
                                    The inside leg when applied for bend was what started the canter....
                                    I am mixed up about you aids. One rides routinely with inside leg closer to the girth and outside leg stretched down and back (passively). The inside leg is only used to 'fluff up' the energy, or stirrup stepping to start a figure. It is not 'applied for bend' but for energy.

                                    Originally posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
                                    The Shoulder in to travers ....
                                    That is an exercises that is not usually done. si to volte to travers; or si to hp; or si/straight/travers.

                                    Originally posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
                                    My shoulder in to the left is really a struggle with added collection if you wanna spout some ideas
                                    Shoulder in, because of the axial rotation, is what GIVES the horse collection (collection being amplitude of stride through greater flexion of the hind leg joints). So I don't understand your idea/wording??
                                    I.D.E.A. yoda

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      I do use my inside leg for more bend and I also use it for more energy.I do use shoulder fore as a movement rather than consider all collection shoulder fore. I know the "position" is always shoulders in front but I still see a distinction between that and the movement.

                                      I realize others do not but its how I was trained.
                                      ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
                                      http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by suzy View Post
                                        It may also be a case of expecting too much of yourself and your horse too soon. Just give the horse the idea of the movement, reward for any effort offered, and gradually ask for more collection, more bend, more crossover, etc. as the horse gets stronger and better understands what you want.
                                        I feel like the few steps are fine. What I feel though is that she is eager but my own definition is not clear and her eager to please attitude is showing clearly my issues .

                                        I may be altogether asking for collected canter in her mind since it is new lol

                                        I will say this. She is the first horse Ive owned to offer something else lovely rather than just simply refuse lol

                                        Have no fear we mostly stick to what we know but the connection is there and she is doing wonderful half halts so I was advised to play with it as it will strengthen her lengthening and mediums.

                                        Her strength is in the shorter game...

                                        I am going to have to relearn so much as my previous horses were stronger in longer work.
                                        ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
                                        http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

                                        Comment

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