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Who reads German? Klaus Martin Rath on Rolkur and Totilas

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  • #21
    Originally posted by LanceBehind View Post
    Watch some training and warm up videos from yesterday and 20 years ago.

    http://tinyurl.com/6mhk4yw
    I have heard that this rider is one of the first that achieved international success at shows under this method. Still doesn't mean it should be used. Weak and sad people.
    Fear is the rocket sauce.
    Jack Black

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    • #22
      Originally posted by Bluey View Post
      Looks like a video made by some with an axe to grind for their five minutes of glory.

      Put them on that horse right there and lets see what they could do.
      I do think the previous rider made the horse look easy, this one may be a bit overmounted.

      If that is rollkur and so objectionable, pfff to all those that want to use that for their agendas.
      Better go tilt at other windmills, I say.
      So...this is the idea of training to produce a horse that is joyful and efficient to ride? Muscling it around like a low-functioning monkey because you have leverage available to use on its mouth? This type of riding is just a means to an end.

      That end is not to make a useful, obedient, participating riding horse, which is what the military would have needed, and any person who would like to enjoy the experience of riding a partner in the field would like to experience. This is about winning for the glory of the human. Period.
      Fear is the rocket sauce.
      Jack Black

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by ZiggyStardust View Post
        So...this is the idea of training to produce a horse that is joyful and efficient to ride? Muscling it around like a low-functioning monkey because you have leverage available to use on its mouth? This type of riding is just a means to an end.

        That end is not to make a useful, obedient, participating riding horse, which is what the military would have needed, and any person who would like to enjoy the experience of riding a partner in the field would like to experience. This is about winning for the glory of the human. Period.
        I won't disagree, but so is any other we do with horses, from the time we fence them in and get on their backs.

        You have the right to not like what others do, but not to insult others because you don't like what they do.
        Living in glass houses and all that.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by Bluey View Post
          I won't disagree, but so is any other we do with horses, from the time we fence them in and get on their backs.

          You have the right to not like what others do, but not to insult others because you don't like what they do.
          Living in glass houses and all that.
          Hmm, didn't know you were the arbiter of rights.

          Horses are domesticated animals, and at this point in their evolution, most are purpose-bred, and exist primarily at the whim of humans. I suspect the first time they were ridden and then fenced in, it may have been about mutual survival, not about winning ribbons.
          Fear is the rocket sauce.
          Jack Black

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by ZiggyStardust View Post
            Horses are domesticated animals, and at this point in their evolution, most are purpose-bred, and exist primarily at the whim of humans.
            Errr, earth to Ziggy. You might want to edit the evolution bit: you can't have horses evolving and being purpose-bred at the same time.

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            • #26
              The one thing I really did not like was the head bobbing was very similar to the rhythmic head shaking found in TWH's especially the big lick horses. NO idea if that is his way of going now or a result of the RK.
              "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"

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              • #27
                The head bobbing started when Rath started riding him, supposedly w/o rollkur.

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by alicen View Post
                  The head bobbing started when Rath started riding him, supposedly w/o rollkur.
                  Its distracting and IMHO is moments away from this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt1YjjH7fcs head bobbing and exaggerated front end. Can't even compare it to ASB's because even with all their front end and toe flipping they hold their heads still.

                  I know ^ is me exaggerating but still. If the super front end means a wonky head .. give it a rest already.
                  "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by ZiggyStardust View Post
                    Hmm, didn't know you were the arbiter of rights.

                    Horses are domesticated animals, and at this point in their evolution, most are purpose-bred, and exist primarily at the whim of humans. I suspect the first time they were ridden and then fenced in, it may have been about mutual survival, not about winning ribbons.
                    Ok, you can have any rights you want, including the right to insult others if you want to.
                    Lets say that doing so reflects more on you than on those you may intend to insult.

                    There is so, so much I don't like in life, that we do to ourselves, our environment and to and with our horses.
                    Still, most humans understand that the world really doesn't revolve around what we like or dislike only, that all of us get to play, each one as we see best.

                    Just think, there is so much you do that others would like to insult you for it.
                    Just owning animals and riding horses, before you get to HOW you ride them.

                    Did you look at that video posted?
                    Seems that is what we are talking about when it comes to RK.
                    To me, in there, RK looked more of an evasion the very hot horse was using than a training technique the rider was asking for.
                    It looked like the rider had a keg of dynamite in it's hands and it was slippery, RK making it more so, not more manageable.
                    That is a pitfall of any horse that leaned to go behind the bit, if RK or not.
                    If I had been that rider, I would have been a bit annoyed in that situation, to have the horse revert to RK and, as the rider does there, try to use what was given, even if not what he would have preferred.
                    He does get the horse back, now that is admirable.

                    Then, what do I know, that is just my opinion and yes, you are very much entitled to yours without anyone needing to give you permission to have an opinion.

                    I still think you were directly insulting in your post, that being insulting no matter what real or imagined provocation, is poor conduct and worse logic when trying to debate and that is MY opinion.

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                    • #30
                      this whole *thing* has been very eye opening to me.

                      what is on that video is not anywhere near "bad" enough to warrant the full scale mobilization and attack that is going on.

                      Honestly, i am so anti PR/marketing already and now even more so as the sheep are lead to follow what ever whim the (anti) machine puts out. and yes, i will be crucified for saying this as i used to be "one of them" when this whole things was in its infancy, but i think what they are doing is wrong.

                      most of the folks screaming from the rooftops have no idea what they are even talking about - most are not well seated dressage riders... and really while of course in this day and age, we can shout about anything we want - to be taken seriously you really do need to have some kind of basis in theory and ability.

                      My guess is that this "whole thing" was started by someones who want to help the other teams.

                      <shrug> count me now for one that will NOT shout about what was sen in that video - bring back the queen and king of crank and sure - but that video?

                      really?

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Just took a look at "the video". I honestly see more "abusive riding" at our local shows and at any kind of 4H or Pony club event. Poor riding can certainly equal abusive riding, even though it's not intended. Rath may not ride as well as Gal but he's still a very competent horseman who is riding this horse fine. Sure, Totilas has moments of tension and inattention. Rath has to deal with what he has. Will anyone honestly assert that they could take a hot, electric breeding stallion to a big show and not experience some tension in the warmup? Are people on this board deluded in expectations? I am a big fan of Gal and I think he could have "massaged" the tension out with his seat and used his extraordinary relationship with Totilas to make the warmup quieter. The fact that Rath can't do this does NOT make him an abusive or a crappy rider. Judge not...less you be judged people! The rollkur? Hum, whatever. Doesn't seem overdone here.

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                        • #32
                          I'd let Rath rollkur my horse any time.

                          Sometimes he rollkurs himself. He went through a phase earlier this year where he wanted to go around with his chin on his chest for the first 10-15 minutes of every ride. I figured he needed the stretch so I let him do it. I suppose I should have reported him for self-mutilation. After all, he could have permanently overstretched his nuchal ligament!

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by LarkspurCO View Post
                            I'd let Rath rollkur my horse any time.

                            Sometimes he rollkurs himself. He went through a phase earlier this year where he wanted to go around with his chin on his chest for the first 10-15 minutes of every ride. I figured he needed the stretch so I let him do it. I suppose I should have reported him for self-mutilation. After all, he could have permanently overstretched his nuchal ligament!

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by LarkspurCO View Post
                              I'd let Rath rollkur my horse any time.
                              Really. If that's horse abuse, sign me up for the classes.
                              Ring the bells that still can ring
                              Forget your perfect offering
                              There is a crack in everything
                              That's how the light gets in.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                                You are taking training out of context there, talking about pathology, that can happen due to injuries, not regular training.
                                Regular training can cause INJURY.
                                ... _. ._ .._. .._

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                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by Equibrit View Post
                                  Regular training can cause INJURY.
                                  True, so can walking out in the pasture.
                                  In fact, in general, the more/better a horse is conditioned and trained, the LESS it will chance getting injured, because he is better at his task and more physically able compared with the equivalent of a couch potato half heartedly working out and then competing or trying to get around in a hurry.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Posted by opel:

                                    Will anyone honestly assert that they could take a hot, electric breeding stallion to a big show and not experience some tension in the warmup?

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Not a fan of RK, but honestly that video was far, far from being abusive. I thought it was going to be 10min of nose to chest, and he maybe had the horse in a deep/rollkur-ish position for 2 or 3 thirty second intervals. Not exactly causing the horse permanent damage there.

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                                      • #39
                                        The first ride (Isabel Werth) I think the horse is quite aggitated ... I am basing that on the tail swatting and the stilted gait.

                                        So, I don't agree with the commentator.

                                        All three of the videos on the above link show the same aggitation in each of the individual horses.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by CHT View Post

                                          [snip]

                                          I also think NOT using LRD would very much change how Toto moves as the muscles/ligaments aren't being prepared in the same way...so then Rath gets slammed for ruining how the horse moves as payment from trying to school in a kinder manner. Really Lose lose for Rath.

                                          I think it has been "lose lose" for Rath since he got the ride. He is always going to be compared to Gal and looked at under a microscope...

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