• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse
1 of 2 < >

Event Announcements now available FREE to all registered users

We just reconfigured the Event Announcements forum to be available as a free service for all registered forum users. See the thread stuck at the top of that forum for more information.
2 of 2 < >

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

4/30 COTH Article: Are Judges Driving Amateurs Away?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Gloria View Post
    And don't tell me that the nicer mover with lousy test beats the average joe with correct riding. It just doesn't happen that often as some want to make it out to be. Most time the average joe horse is ridden poorly, and then got beat by the nice horse ridden equally poorly. And then, the riders of the average joe horses instead of sitting down and contemplating the loss and ways to improve, totally forgetting they themselves have not presented their average joe horse to their best ability, they cry about unfairness.

    It is sooo easy just to say, "they prejudice against me", "the judge does not know what the heck he/she is doing," and "it's all the universe' fault," than to look at ourselves, be brutally honest with the flaws we have, and then set realistic goals, and then work hard to get there.
    Totally. The riders I typically see complaining about results after shows are not putting in high quality tests. And while they seem to be experts on other riders' performances or the judging, they don't cast nearly as critical an eye on themselves, their riding, or their training.

    Like I said before, sour grapes.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by TickleFight View Post
      Totally. The riders I typically see complaining about results after shows are not putting in high quality tests. And while they seem to be experts on other riders' performances or the judging, they don't cast nearly as critical an eye on themselves, their riding, or their training.

      Like I said before, sour grapes.

      Oh, sure, sour grapes.

      Like the rider who got a test back with a lowish score and the comment "Lovely ride, too bad about the color." (17.2 Palomino, mostly TB,moved like WB, pro trainer riding)

      Or the rider who was told by the scribe that the judge,who had consistently scored the rider highly, had scored her very low for what appeared to be quite a nice test, had commented (not on the test): "I used to think this horse was a Dutch WB,but then I found out it's JUST a PAINT"

      Or the judge who said TO MY FACE, regarding my decently (but not fancy) moving and VERY obedient Appy, "Appaloosas are not dressage horses." (Horse in question was the one in my profile pic. Does he look like a cowhorse?)

      Sure, just sour grapes.

      Comment


      • Sandy, your App is lovely.

        I've never had a negative comment about my mare's size, color, or breed. To be fair, she is a pretty good mover -- usually get a 7 on gaits -- and she "looks like a dressage horse" only smaller.

        From what I have heard, the recognized show scene in California is really cut-throat and snooty, though, with a whole lot of money floating around -- much more like the hunter scene. New England is "traditional" but the judges see a lot of Morgans, Haffies, draft-crosses etc. even at the lower levels and seem much more fair.
        You have to have experiences to gain experience.

        1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by quietann View Post
          Great comment!

          Regarding #3, my recognized shows for the year are King Oak and Dressage at the Seacoast, and maybe Letter Perfect (though that may be too clubby for me... but it is the closest recognized show in New England) I'm feeling a bit intimidated by anything at Saugerties, Mystic Valley, etc.
          King Oaks and the UNH shows are both lovely. I also have to put in a word for Beland. The judging is, well, up the judges hired but the management is top notch. They are friendly, welcoming and the secretary is a real peach and has put up with multiple newbie mistakes on my part without complaint. I've never had anything but compliments from the staff about my little high strung arab.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sandy M View Post
            Oh, sure, sour grapes.

            Like the rider who got a test back with a lowish score and the comment "Lovely ride, too bad about the color." (17.2 Palomino, mostly TB,moved like WB, pro trainer riding)

            Or the rider who was told by the scribe that the judge,who had consistently scored the rider highly, had scored her very low for what appeared to be quite a nice test, had commented (not on the test): "I used to think this horse was a Dutch WB,but then I found out it's JUST a PAINT"

            Or the judge who said TO MY FACE, regarding my decently (but not fancy) moving and VERY obedient Appy, "Appaloosas are not dressage horses." (Horse in question was the one in my profile pic. Does he look like a cowhorse?)

            Sure, just sour grapes.
            Or the rides with two judges where the scores are all pretty equal until the Friesian's ride. Or the judge makes scathing remarks to show management and the scribe about certain breeds. Or the judge who makes a comment in a forum about throwing scraps to people who ride those "other breeds".

            It isn't always sour grapes. Sometimes, yes, but sometimes no. In general, I think most judges do a good job, and I will often argue for the judge, but there are a few bad grapes out there, causing the sourness. Breed and color bias to exist. And it becomes quite evident when there are two judges judging concurrently. Sure, I understand things are seen differently from side versus front, but I also understand numbers, and the scoring patterns can be very revealing.

            And yes, I have seen judges reward big gaits over good training. This is another area where two judges can come up with totally different scores - one gets wowed by the fancy front end, the other notices the spooking, the dropped back and braced neck, the rearing. Very interesting when you see a 10 or 20 or 30 point difference in scores only on certain horses.

            Again, I still think the majority of judges do a good job. But I also believe some let their inherent bias shadow their ability to judge fairly. And competitors aren't stupid - they see it - and yes, they get angry. And as a result, you see threads like this, and less participation at shows, and reduced memberships in USDF and GMOs...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by flasher View Post
              King Oaks and the UNH shows are both lovely. I also have to put in a word for Beland. The judging is, well, up the judges hired but the management is top notch. They are friendly, welcoming and the secretary is a real peach and has put up with multiple newbie mistakes on my part without complaint. I've never had anything but compliments from the staff about my little high strung arab.
              I've also heard great things about Beland, but their show dates don't work for me until the fall. Maybe we'll make it down there then.
              You have to have experiences to gain experience.

              1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by netg View Post
                At a show where there were L candidates, with Janet Foy the instructor for the session, one asked her how she would handle scoring a first level horse who was consistently BTV. This is a horse who is bouncy and supple, has suspension and impulsion. Pretty to watch, nice mover. But BTV. Janet looked up as he lengthened across the diagonal. Huge change in stride length, very clean and crisp transitions. BTV the whole time. But such a huge change, so smoothly making it, with no requirement for uphill balance - it was impressive. Janet's response of how she'd handle it because he was BTV was "well, you can't give him a 10." When you see a horse who looks great but is BTV, that horse could be scoring in the 70s on the test because circles are round and movement is really nice, maybe a couple bobbles lowering scores on specific movements, but not getting the 8s or 9s the gaits and round circles combined would give the horse because it's losing points for being BTV. Which of course only happens when the judge is at an angle to see it. They wouldn't lose points for BTV when the judge doesn't see it.

                Those horses who live BTV, though - do you see them successfully moving up the levels and learning an uphill balance, true collection, etc? I don't. If a horse isn't learning proper carriage, regardless of natural movement, it hits stumbling blocks in its training at some point.

                Just wondering if you were at the recent Westworld show? Mr Akro and I helped score for the L-program sessions with Janet.

                Comment


                • Wow, I live in CA and ride/show several ponies (and horses both warmblood and non-warmblood)---and never gotten a disparaging remark. I have found most shows very welcoming, the judging to be reasonably fair and accurate, the secretaries and staff to be business like but often etremely 'busy' at certain times of day.

                  Overtime we've become selective about where we show (which facilities 'we like') and under which judges---but there is really only one judge we purposely avoid--and that is because she scores universally 3-5 points below average (not just me but everyone scores are less than one might anticipate under another judge).

                  My most recent experience was very rewarding---the comments on my test were most useful and for the most part very positive. I came away with a better understanding of where we were at that time and where we needed to focus our efforts for the future. When I left the arena after my first ride (which wasn't very pretty in my opinion but someone by the in gate gave me an "attagirl-nice ride!" which did help to calm my nerves).

                  In my own experience we have found over and over again that the more highly trained the judge the more open to off breeds /fair/accurate the scores seem to be. It does not mean they will place you ahead of the competition (unless you earned it)--but the scores at least reflect reasonably well the ride in front of them. I do not think its impossible to score ahead of much fancier moving horses----but its not easy.

                  It didn't hurt my feelings to that we won both our tests with qualifying scores--but maybe on that day we were more 'together' than our competition. I do know that in both my tests I was the lone amateur along with one junior and several open riders. I also know that every horse in the division had competed (at some point) above where we were competing that day--except me and my pony.
                  Redbud Ranch
                  Check us out on FB

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sandy M View Post
                    Oh, sure, sour grapes.

                    Like the rider who got a test back with a lowish score and the comment "Lovely ride, too bad about the color." (17.2 Palomino, mostly TB,moved like WB, pro trainer riding)

                    Or the rider who was told by the scribe that the judge,who had consistently scored the rider highly, had scored her very low for what appeared to be quite a nice test, had commented (not on the test): "I used to think this horse was a Dutch WB,but then I found out it's JUST a PAINT"

                    Or the judge who said TO MY FACE, regarding my decently (but not fancy) moving and VERY obedient Appy, "Appaloosas are not dressage horses." (Horse in question was the one in my profile pic. Does he look like a cowhorse?)

                    Sure, just sour grapes.
                    Sandy you trot these three examples out ALL THE TIME - the first happened long ago, the second , it could be argued that the judge was giving a *compliment* - you just choose to take it as a slight, and the third - judges can have personal opinions - the only time that will be a problem is if they take those opinions into the judges booth.

                    While i have my disagreements with what wins nowadays, and i wish that judges would go back to a move traditional POV, i cant think that all judges suck...... especially because i know a few and know how they judge

                    i do think that the price of showing has priced out many .. me included. and that the professionalization of our sport has had tremendous affects.

                    Comment


                    • TBH I think there's a tremendous amount of negativity going around regardless of what type of horse you're riding. One subset of people seems quick to sneer at less-common-breeds and the sometimes-valid concerns they have over their treatment, or they doubt the degree of commitment of the rider, or they get patronizing (the old "oh look at the cute fat pony pretending it belongs here! tee hee! isn't that cute!"). But on the other hand, I see a LOT of people who make assumptions that anybody with an expensive WB is buying their way into the sport, can't really ride, is all flash no substance, must have their trainer do all the work at home, and god help them if said WB happens to go one millimeter BTV ever in its life. It's like you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by kris0227 View Post
                        For myself and those in my barn and perhaps area in general, it is FAR cheaper to show at the schooling shows and the awards are quite frankly, better (year end anyway). It's $20 per class with no office fees, no membership fees, no stall fees, not haul-in fees, nothing... $20. I can show my two horses in a show for $80 + gas for the day. If I show rated, I have to have my horses registered with the USDF, registered with the USEF (If I want to go for regionals and I don't see why I'd compete if I weren't also going for that and/or my medals), I have to be registered with them both, I have to pay office fees, grounds fees, drug test fees, stall fees, and then inflated class fees + another $10 per class that I wanted recorded for the aforementioned awards and regionals.... by the end of the day, I've spent well over $500 for a single day plus gas and the shows are farther away. (Disclaimer: it's been a few years since I've shown rated and I can't remember what all memberships I had to have for what, but I do specifically remember an extra $10 per class to record my scores, which I thought was highway robbery!).

                        So... for my dollar? I'll go for the schooling shows until I KNOW my horse can handle the atmosphere of the rated shows and only then take her to get the scores for my medals.
                        This - even though years ago I purchase life membership in USDF and USEF (knowing I'll be riding the rest of my life) - so at least those yearly charges aren't there. But really $100+ for 2 nights in a stall not to mention the time (3 hrs) to travel, the cost of diesel then they tack an additional $25-50/night for water and electrical hookup for my trailer (LQ)? Since when do we use that much water/electric?

                        I also find the schooling shows much more fun - I know many of the people and we all tend to help one another in warmups, calling, etc.

                        At recognized shows my SO has even paid a "pro" to call a test for me - and she ended up skipping parts of the test in the 2nd class (after I whooped her students in the first class). Luckily for me I memorized the test and only wanted a caller for piece of mind. Even the judge was shaking her head at the caller.
                        Now in Kentucky

                        Comment


                        • On the btv thing...one should read the FEI handbook (with descriptions of 0-10) as well as know the rules. (And no score there above 5 allows for btv interestingly enough).

                          "On the bit' is described in the rules/guidelines, as are the expected carriage/outlines for the horse as well in definitions of each of the gaits. And the scores MUST BE lowered if the horse is 'not on the bit' but held together in a shortened outline. The rules allow for MOMENTARY losses of balance, but IF a horse is CONSISTENTLY at or btv it WILL impact the gaits, the stride lengths, balance, etc and the scores must be lowered. IF the horse were 'on the bit' then a problematic posture could/should be changed within one exercises/figure, maybe two. IF the TRAINING (which IS what we are JUDGING) is correct either the rider is NOT asking the horse to change its posture OR they are intentionally riding this posture; either way it is INcorrect and MUST noted HEAVILY (if of course we are judging by the directives)....as well as the faults which ORIGINATE in the problematic outline.

                          The entire PURPOSE of TRAINING is not just to 'ride a line', but to use that line/exercise/movement to improve the balance and maximize the gaits.

                          The entire 'thing' of trying to make incorrect balance/outline/bearing 'acceptable' so that the scores are not HONEST. (well..its not a 10...grrr). It is REPULSIVE to not have comments/scores which are CLEAR ENOUGH to have riders seek out teachers/trainers which will evoke changes.

                          Btv is easily seeable from any position in the arena. And yes one does see such horses moving up the levels (even routinely winning at international levels) with the third vertebrae the highest point/compressed necks. The posture however does effect the gait (purity) and balance clearly. Look at how many horses at GP either do balancee or lean over there forelegs in piaffe. All being ignored, and they do not have true collection.


                          As far as judges driving AA away, a couple of thoughts: at a camp recently the question was asked about showing. About have didn't show, but those who previously had (10) related that they would rather spend their (limited) funds on training, one said showing and no lessons. Their choices were economic.

                          That said, what judges 'sanctify' as correct will continue, horse btv/over tempo given 60-70s will continue doing what they are doing. No going back to the drawing board, finding a coach who can help them. Judges are SUPPOSED to be USING the rules and being a mirror of what happened. MORE comments are needed in every box (and yes one does have time to do them). Honest scores will up the quality, and honest training will help the horse. Self worth comes from honest success, not a freebie pass when showing.

                          And as far as different scores from different positions in the arena. The one at the front sees straightness more clearly, the one on the side sees balance/collection/etc more clearly. The scores should not necessarily be the same, and REASONING for those differences should be clearly written. The entire thing of having like scores is interesting. Niggli (ex head of FEI dressage) stated that likely those who go 'out on a limb' (with the numerical definition) are likely right. And clear numbers (i.e. fairly bad 3 is more impactful than 4 insufficient, or good (8) is clearer than satisfactory 6). Even within one tests judges must see differences between one side and another and make that CLEAR to the competitor.
                          I.D.E.A. yoda

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by goodpony View Post
                            In my own experience we have found over and over again that the more highly trained the judge the more open to off breeds /fair/accurate the scores seem to be. It does not mean they will place you ahead of the competition (unless you earned it)--but the scores at least reflect reasonably well the ride in front of them. I do not think its impossible to score ahead of much fancier moving horses----but its not easy.
                            I have found this also that judges with more experience, who are judging, at least the lower levels that I show in, are much more adept at scoring the rides. One only has to compare the score sheets to recognize this. I keep all the sheets from all my horses and organized them by judge. I regularly see that an experienced judge will give me a quality score card, meaning excellent comments (NOT ALWAYS POSITIVE BUT EXCELLENT), that I can learn from, and this no matter the breeding of the horse. This gives my trainer and I a work plan for the future.
                            Thus when I spend my $$ on a schooling or recog. show I will actively seek out those judges, for a fair and balanced critique.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by mbm View Post
                              the second , it could be argued that the judge was giving a *compliment* - you just choose to take it as a slight, and the third - judges can have personal opinions - the only time that will be a problem is if they take those opinions into the judges booth.
                              Really? A horse he had scored 68% when he thought it was a DWB, but scored 58% when he knew it was a Paint? A compliment? The juge very much took the personal opinion into the judge's booth.

                              That being said, I do agree that such biases seem to be rarer and rarer, thank dog! But there are still a few judges that do take those prejudiceds in to the booth, and I most definitely DO see incorrect, disobedient fancy movers place over correct, obedient, less fancy movers. Not always, but enough to discourage the average ammy - or the average pro, for that matter! My present horse- not the one in the photo - IS a fancy mover, and while he is obviously Appy, his markings are much more suble/less obvious than my old horse's were. Many people guess that he is a WB cross. He's not - he's a hot blood cross. LOL I will fully admit that sometimes, with him, I get a score that is probably higher than he deserves, but he gets it because he moves like WB.

                              A judge can't or shouldn't ignore outright resistance, disobedience, head sets, lack of throughness, etc. It's one thing when it's just ONE movement, but when it's throughout a test and a horse still gets a highly competitive score because it's a fancy mover, it is rightly perceived as "unfair." Showing costs $$$. Ammies see that sort of judging and retreat to schooling shows, clinics, or not showing at all.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
                                On the btv thing...one should read the FEI handbook (with descriptions of 0-10) as well as know the rules. (And no score there above 5 allows for btv interestingly enough).

                                "On the bit' is described in the rules/guidelines, as are the expected carriage/outlines for the horse as well in definitions of each of the gaits. And the scores MUST BE lowered if the horse is 'not on the bit' but held together in a shortened outline. The rules allow for MOMENTARY losses of balance, but IF a horse is CONSISTENTLY at or btv it WILL impact the gaits, the stride lengths, balance, etc and the scores must be lowered. IF the horse were 'on the bit' then a problematic posture could/should be changed within one exercises/figure, maybe two. IF the TRAINING (which IS what we are JUDGING) is correct either the rider is NOT asking the horse to change its posture OR they are intentionally riding this posture; either way it is INcorrect and MUST noted HEAVILY (if of course we are judging by the directives)....as well as the faults which ORIGINATE in the problematic outline.

                                The entire PURPOSE of TRAINING is not just to 'ride a line', but to use that line/exercise/movement to improve the balance and maximize the gaits.

                                The entire 'thing' of trying to make incorrect balance/outline/bearing 'acceptable' so that the scores are not HONEST. (well..its not a 10...grrr). It is REPULSIVE to not have comments/scores which are CLEAR ENOUGH to have riders seek out teachers/trainers which will evoke changes.

                                Btv is easily seeable from any position in the arena. And yes one does see such horses moving up the levels (even routinely winning at international levels) with the third vertebrae the highest point/compressed necks. The posture however does effect the gait (purity) and balance clearly. Look at how many horses at GP either do balancee or lean over there forelegs in piaffe. All being ignored, and they do not have true collection.


                                As far as judges driving AA away, a couple of thoughts: at a camp recently the question was asked about showing. About have didn't show, but those who previously had (10) related that they would rather spend their (limited) funds on training, one said showing and no lessons. Their choices were economic.

                                That said, what judges 'sanctify' as correct will continue, horse btv/over tempo given 60-70s will continue doing what they are doing. No going back to the drawing board, finding a coach who can help them. Judges are SUPPOSED to be USING the rules and being a mirror of what happened. MORE comments are needed in every box (and yes one does have time to do them). Honest scores will up the quality, and honest training will help the horse. Self worth comes from honest success, not a freebie pass when showing.

                                And as far as different scores from different positions in the arena. The one at the front sees straightness more clearly, the one on the side sees balance/collection/etc more clearly. The scores should not necessarily be the same, and REASONING for those differences should be clearly written. The entire thing of having like scores is interesting. Niggli (ex head of FEI dressage) stated that likely those who go 'out on a limb' (with the numerical definition) are likely right. And clear numbers (i.e. fairly bad 3 is more impactful than 4 insufficient, or good (8) is clearer than satisfactory 6). Even within one tests judges must see differences between one side and another and make that CLEAR to the competitor.
                                Thank you ^^^ Excellent post!

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Sandy M View Post
                                  Really? .
                                  well, the COMMENT could be taken any way you wanted. The scores we have no idea because we don't have the tests to see why the difference in score.

                                  on a different topic -

                                  I think more folks should read and understand the rules of our sport - have a better understanding of the training scale and how to works - because i see a lot of incorrect work that gets judged fairly and yet then the rider complains.....

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by akrogirl View Post
                                    Just wondering if you were at the recent Westworld show? Mr Akro and I helped score for the L-program sessions with Janet.
                                    Yep!

                                    We probably met - I was scribing for Reiter from the forums. I just changed my profile pic so you can kind of see me.


                                    On topic - I show for the judges! My trainer and I both ADORE my horse. And therefore feel getting outsider feedback is smart, because we are aware we could be blind to his flaws because of how we feel about him. I have gotten very helpful feedback from judges, and find knowing the detailed opinion of someone who doesn't know or have an emotional connection to my horse is very helpful. To me, that's the reason to go to a rated show and ride in front of a more highly trained judge.

                                    I'm showing at a schooling show this weekend - for $30. The last rated show I went to was around $300 for one day, no stalls. I feel for everyone who pays nearly the same for rated and unrated shows!
                                    If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
                                    -meupatdoes

                                    Comment


                                    • I dunno. i think dressage is in a hard position. The sport is very difficult to do with even a moderate degree of competence. Takes years and very hard work to achieve much of anything. This aspect just does not sit well with the "quick quick" mindset of modern life. Also, the sport is expensive. No question, in any horse sport not just dressage, the talent of your horse absolutely contributes to competition success. That talent generally costs money. So does the training necessary to advance in the sport without wasting time on incorrect (but seemed right at the time!) tangents. So, it's hard to balance the judging in a way that would keep the difficulty and requirements of the sport where they need to be and at the same time not discourage riders who think they can learn it in a couple short years.
                                      All I know is my own experience. I have shown 5 horses through the years. 1 Arab, 2 OTTB, 1 less talented WB and 1 very talented WB. I have found the judging to be fair throughout. I have certainly had my disappointments. I have had my shows where I thought we did great and came up with mediocre scores. Always in retrospect and after further instruction, I've realized where I went wrong and why my scores were disappointing. I have hit this most frequently with the talented horse. Judges do not like it when I ride her like a moron. They nail me for it, worse than they did for similar mistakes with the others. I can assure you that I can't picture any scenerio where I would be scored well for riding this horse behind the BTV and with hind legs trailing. I make a point to only show under S judges or higher though, as I think they are more consistent in expectations.
                                      I am so lucky to have the talented mare. I only have her because instead of crying over my poverty and screaming "sour grapes", I made a real effort to figure out how I could have a nice horse too. I researched, I learned about evaluating young horses. I finally bought a weanling (yes, she was expensive for a weanling but cheap in comparison to an adult). I put in the time, effort and all that. Now I have a very talented horse even though I'm poor. I CAN'T STAND the people who comment on how "lucky" I am and how "of course they could win if they had a horse like that too". I worked for what I have. Don't forget there are the riders out there on the fancy horses that have put in the dedication, ridden the off-breeds without complaining and somehow made it happen.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by quietann View Post
                                        From what I have heard, the recognized show scene in California is really cut-throat and snooty, though, with a whole lot of money floating around -- much more like the hunter scene. New England is "traditional" but the judges see a lot of Morgans, Haffies, draft-crosses etc. even at the lower levels and seem much more fair.
                                        I have never shown a warmblood in dressage and I have never felt anything other than welcome at a dressage show anywhere I've gone in California, north or south.

                                        Yes, some of the facilities are gorgeous and some of the horses ooze money, but you can't take that personally. I know how to dress myself, I know how to groom a horse, I know how to sit tall in a saddle, and I have never felt out of place.

                                        I am sure there are incidents of individual rude people making rude comments. If I have ever heard any, I attribute them to the insecurity of the individual making those comments.

                                        Judges come from all over, so I don't think you can attribute comments from any one judge to a region.
                                        If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by opel View Post
                                          I CAN'T STAND the people who comment on how "lucky" I am and how "of course they could win if they had a horse like that too".
                                          Nothing will lower your personal assessment of your own riding ability faster than finally getting that fancy horse ...

                                          Very seriously: when you do well, it's all the horse and you are scorned. When you do poorly, it's all you and you are scorned. It's not an easy road. There are no easy roads in horsemanship, just some with fewer deathly crevasses.
                                          If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X