• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

CP charged in NJ....wonder if any settled cases

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
    What I don't understand is why the owner's insurance wouldnt settle it (loss of use).
    Have you ever inquired about purchasing loss of use for any of your own horses?

    It is extremely expensive, and most of the time the way it works is that if you want to pursue the claim the insurance company takes the horse. You get the money, they get the horse to do as they please with.

    Also if your idea of "loss of use" is, "It is no longer sound enough to do GP level," sometimes the insurance company will say, "Well it is still perfectly suitable for a lesson program so what's your point?"

    Plenty of people who inquire about it make the call that the coverage you get is not worth the expense of the premium.
    The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
    Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
    Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
    The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

    Comment


    • Agree with feather river. Would I send a (young) horse to a rider who is not a young horse expert? Never. Would I send a horse to a rider whose horses do not go as I would desire (calm/methodical/etc)? No. Or to people who are really only good jockeys of trained horses versus methodically train them? No. Would I investigate where I am sending a horse, and watch like a hawk for several handlings/rides? Absolutely. EVERYONE should start at the beginning when seeing a new horse, and not assume anything when taking on a young horse imho. Do others want excessive expression/precipitous flexion? Yes, that is clear from earlier training. Those things are personal choices which create sometimes problematic outcomes, and from a place whose site says 'training through GP'.

      In any case, when sending a horse away from home (for a brief period to get ready for testings), it is a good idea to have insurance. Protecting assets, in this case a lovely one. (And loss of use could be as a stallion, although they can be trained to be collected w/o mounting.) I have been in this situation. And needed it when horses were away from personal care/custody/control.

      We can all say this sucks...it does. And there is human responsibility all around. Who will have economic consequences? Likely the case will fail. But the best outcome for all the viewers is to take personal responsibility, to learn to question in terms of training/methodology/reasoning, and not be taken in more by a search for winning than proper training.
      I.D.E.A. yoda

      Comment


      • Originally posted by dudleyc View Post

        I assume you are referring to William's owner? It is very easy, using centerine scores to find the show history of William and his owner. She is a "first level rider".
        centerline scores only can report what has happened in recognized shows. there are plenty of folks who ride much higher than they have ever shown.

        as for the owner and knowing/not knowing how a trainer is with horses..... i think that some folks have forgotten what is was like to not have a excellent education - how easy it is to not know what is really going on etc. heck it took me years to realize that i was not being taught properly, and then it took me more years to find a trainer that was worth while.

        i hope the owner gets some kind of monetary win for this to help defray the costs of medical for poor WIlliam.

        And i can only wish we had some kind of program in the US that would weed out all the abusive , ham fisted maroons so they cant destroy any more horses on someone else's dime. ......

        Comment


        • Originally posted by mbm View Post

          as for the owner and knowing/not knowing how a trainer is with horses..... i think that some folks have forgotten what is was like to not have a excellent education - how easy it is to not know what is really going on etc. heck it took me years to realize that i was not being taught properly, and then it took me more years to find a trainer that was worth while.



          And i can only wish we had some kind of program in the US that would weed out all the abusive , ham fisted maroons so they cant destroy any more horses on someone else's dime. ......
          I really agree with this. CP has a HUGE name and is marketed and packaged to attract potential clients such as this stallion's owner. Have you ever watched a BNT say or do something that was wrong and had the guts to stand up and question their methods or ideas? Have you ever ridden in a clinic and were screaming in your head because the clinician is full of crap and putting you in danger? I have politely TWICE stopped and communicated what was going on and asked questions...and I was the one that got punished. You simply cannot question the one on the pedestal....but of course I would never ride with these people again...they were both recommended and in all the magazines and acted the part.
          You will be blackballed....the horse world is so political and people continually ignore or refuse to show guts because of the backlash. Yes, it would be great if there was a magical way to require a license or accreditation before calling themselves a trainer or instructor.
          "The sea was angry that day, my friends - like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by NJRider View Post
            Yes, it would be great if there was a magical way to require a license or accreditation before calling themselves a trainer or instructor.
            Having a license wouldn't guarantee a person's behavior when they're on their own; just look at how people drive cars.

            Comment


            • Shia1 could very well be one of Parra's working students fro abroad. He has a Japanese rider working for him whose name is similar. Not saying it is, just offering up the possibility.
              Banter whenever you want to banter....canter whenever you want to canter.

              Comment


              • Posted by NJRider:

                I really agree with this. CP has a HUGE name and is marketed and packaged to attract potential clients such as this stallion's owner. Have you ever watched a BNT say or do something that was wrong and had the guts to stand up and question their methods or ideas? Have you ever ridden in a clinic and were screaming in your head because the clinician is full of crap and putting you in danger? I have politely TWICE stopped and communicated what was going on and asked questions...and I was the one that got punished. You simply cannot question the one on the pedestal....but of course I would never ride with these people again...they were both recommended and in all the magazines and acted the part.
                You will be blackballed....the horse world is so political and people continually ignore or refuse to show guts because of the backlash. Yes, it would be great if there was a magical way to require a license or accreditation before calling themselves a trainer or instructor.
                This is true ^ and I have been trying to figure out if there is a way around it.

                Comment


                • I have to say that if you've been in this business for any length of time - you've been schnookered by a Trainer. If you say you've never been screwed - I don't believe you. I'll admit that I trusted more than one who did damage to horses that took YEARS to turn around.

                  It's a big country and information didn't move around as quickly as it does in this age of cyber connections. We also have a lot of ex-pats from Europe who arrive with representations of their abilities and experience and it was pretty darn hard to find out the truth about them.

                  The horse world has been shamefully supportive of the concept of not wanting to expose those in the sport who are dirty. Many have refused to even admit they've seen abuse in fear of repurcussions.

                  Perhaps we now have the ability to document abuse with photo or video by camera or cell phone. I believe a picture is worth a thousand words. Do things sometimes go off the plan during training sessions (especially with youngsters) - yes that can happen. Knowledgeable horse trainers know the best route to working with young horses is to start slowly and build on a solid foundation. They also know that the rapore between the horse and trainer is paramount to establishing TRUST. The process is not just building the physical but most specifically the mental capabilities of each horse, individually based on their abilities.
                  Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
                  "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
                    What I don't understand is why the owner's insurance wouldnt settle it (loss of use).
                    Well..... in discussing this question with someone just recently it was suggested that maybe the insurance co has already paid out so much on previous claims they are not willing to do it again?? Perhaps there is a couple million dollar limit on CP/P-P liability insurance? Maybe it's been exceeded already?
                    "Friend" me !

                    http://www.facebook.com/isabeau.solace

                    Comment


                    • Gorgeous mare and her feet certainly don't look too small to me!
                      Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
                      "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"

                      Comment


                      • NJ Rider... concerning getting blackballed b/c you've decided not to do as bidden in a clinic, or a riding lesson? (not clear).

                        I mean, how terrible is it to be 'black balled'? Would that result in you not being able to find any trainer to ride with -- they turn you down cold or won't return calls?* The show secretary will turn away your show entry? The judge will give you a lousy score regardless of your ride?

                        If that is what you mean (just trying to clarify first), is all of that temporary dismay really worse than helping to reveal a trainer for the sham that he/she is? And to help do your part to get this person out of business and hopefully away from horses? Doesn't that matter more in the end?

                        The reason these people can continue in the biz is b/c they have some dope who wanders up to them with stars in eyes instead of discerning vision and hands over his horse -- the one he supposedly loves so much -- all gaga to have the 'wonderful, top training' begin.

                        Speaking up is how these things get stopped. We all have to do our part, or we are as guilty as these dangerous trainers (not trying to put it on you -- just pointing out how we are all complicit in the problem or in the solution).

                        Comment


                        • interesting that the Wintermuhle organization was also discussed in connection w/ Furst Fabio, (see post 225) who was supposedly shipped there. Other posts indicate that the horse passed away prior to that event, who knows.

                          What a tangled mess; call me naive, but in spite of all the threads and other stuff I've read, I still find it hard to believe that the horse business (beyond just dressage) can be so apparently crooked...
                          We don't get less brave; we get a bigger sense of self-preservation........

                          Comment


                          • Had to delete the "news" from Rate My Horse Pro since they do not want anyone posting their items except themselves........
                            "The sea was angry that day, my friends - like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ise@ssl View Post
                              I have to say that if you've been in this business for any length of time - you've been schnookered by a Trainer. If you say you've never been screwed - I don't believe you.
                              Well, you "won't believe" me, but I've NEVER been snookered by a trainer. *G* I told one I was not interested in the horse she found for me. (Not nastily. Looked at him. Not my type. Declined.) She got pissy for a week or two, then apologized. While I've been happy to look at/pay required commission if a trainer found a horse for me, that only happened once - and the trainer waived the commission because the horse was at a bargain price. Even in 1977 $1,200 for an intermediate level eventing schoolmaster was a bargain (I guess the spots made him cheap *G*). I've always found my own horses and suffered the consequences of my judgment in that respect, for good or for ill.

                              On the other part of that: Trainer abuse or bad training, I guess I've either (a) been fortunate; and/or (b) never been afraid to speak up. I was jerked around by a big name eventer at a clinic. Told him off. He apologized and the rest of the clinic went quite nicely. I usually do not put a horse in full training. I take lessons, then if a problem arises, put horse in training long enough for problem to be dealt with. Just can't afford the alternative. When I had a mare with a MAJOR training issue (not an undersaddle problem), my eventing trainer referred me to someone who could handle it. He had her for 10 days, problem fixed, and she was in good shape physically, and nuzzling him affectionately when he brought her back. Took another horse with under saddle issues - a young horse - back to colt starter, and was told, "He probably won't do it with me. Let's work on this together and I will teach you how to deal with it." Works for me.

                              I will agree people are easily intimidated/taken in by a big reputation. We all know there are a lot of trainers whose behavior "out behind the barn" is greatly different than their successful public image.

                              Comment


                              • Sandy M - you've missed the point I was making.

                                With respect to trainers I wasn't referring to them acting as agents. I was referring to sending horses for training.

                                And I have spoken out at clinics and actually in years past left one and forfeited the money because I thought the man was a complete phoney.
                                Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
                                "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"

                                Comment


                                • Flame suit on: I sure hope the owners of Van The Man are reading all this stuff with their eyes open & aren't just blindly following along thinking it can't happen to them too.

                                  Comment


                                  • Here's the link to the article which has the photo of the mare.
                                    http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/news/c...y-partner.aspx
                                    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
                                    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by ise@ssl View Post
                                      Sandy M - you've missed the point I was making.

                                      With respect to trainers I wasn't referring to them acting as agents. I was referring to sending horses for training.

                                      And I have spoken out at clinics and actually in years past left one and forfeited the money because I thought the man was a complete phoney.
                                      Ah, sorry. Misunderstood. Still, even on that point, I, personally, do find it hard to believe that one wouldn't check such things out in more detail before sending a young horse, particularly a young stallion that needed to pass his approvals, etc. without thoroughly investigating any potential trainer. I was recommended to a colt starter by someone I trusted, but I still - since the names were on her website - contacted people who had or still had horses in training with the recommended individual before I ever contacted her. I then spoke to her, came and watched her work with other youngsters, etc., before I committed to bringing my youngster to her.

                                      It is very strange to me that people do things like, in late middle age, go buy a young horse to ride when they've never ridden before, or buy a young horse "for the kid to grow up with," or get a BLM mustang to 'train' because it's cheap, or, alternatively, blithely spend five figures and up for a horse and just hook up with the handiest trainer without any research. They wouldn't buy a car or a computer, or hire a babysitter, without checking them out, but jump right into horse ownership/training, etc. No wonder Parelli makes a mint!
                                      *icon for shaking head*face palm*etc. LOL

                                      Comment


                                      • Michael wouldn't take this case on if it didn't have merit. He, Ingrid, and his dad all have/had stellar reputations in their professions both inside and outside of the horse world.
                                        Banter whenever you want to banter....canter whenever you want to canter.

                                        Comment


                                        • Thanks Rate My Horse Pro...doing the right thing...reporting the facts.
                                          Tradition of "Grande" Sporthorse Champions
                                          GRANDE SOVEREIGN 2014 USEF 8th Leading HB Sire
                                          & Sire of OWN IT - USEF National HB 3yo Champion

                                          Grand Affiar, Grande Desire, GR Impression, Couture du Jour

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X