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I'm surprised at lack of work ethic (or denial) in some people!-vent!!

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  • I'm surprised at lack of work ethic (or denial) in some people!-vent!!

    So, I organize a monthly clinic locally and the clinician is tough-as she should be. She is not abusive, doesn't yell or call names (well maybe a bit when you've been with her a while ), but she does call you to the carpet for faults and isn't real worried about how she gets her point across. She is very high on praise when it is deserved too. I have people who apparently want to trot 20 m circles and have everyone tell them how great they are. The first lessons it's like they come away feeling like it was just a bad day, 1st time at the facility or whatever. These are grown-ups that have been riding forever on broke horses. What I keep seeing is horses who don't go forward and riders who ride solely off their hands. Well, OK, thats why your here taking lessons, to improve. Right??? Well, if the 2nd lesson doesn't go better than the first (and you know it doesn't) then they don't ever come back. WTF!?! Don't they see that they just keep dumping money away and making no progress? It's not just the clinic I organize that they do this at. I see this same group of women go through every new clinician or trainer available. Maybe 3 lessons before they claim ignorance on trainers part and quit coming.
    I know I can't change them, but watching their poor horses sometimes actually hurts its so bad. Why can't they see it? Or do they and they really don't want to get down and dirty and do what it takes to improve? Maybe clinics, etc are social time for them, and they want to show off their new pads and shiny horses?
    I don't understand!!
    Don't toy with the dragon, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup!

  • #2
    They're looking for that "magic" trainer who can turn them in Anky in one lesson.

    Seriously.

    They want a Dressage Parelli God to sooooothe their wittle feelings and make their horses into champions and themselves into Dressage Queens.

    Just wave "buh-bye" 'cause you don't need people like that anyhoodle.

    Eileen
    Mad Mare™ Studio
    Custom Swarovski®, Czech glass and gemstone browbands in Circlet, Diadem and Tiara styles. Matching stock pins, bracelets and belts.
    http://MadMare.com

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    • #3
      The crappy people who never get any better are what keeps the entire horse industry afloat. Painful to watch, but fact is, most people in most sports never get really great. There's only a small percentage that become good at any sport.

      Comment


      • #4
        Define "good".

        Paddy
        "Chaos, panic and disorder. My work here is done"

        ~Member of the "Addicted to Lessons" clique~

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        • #5
          Maybe in some cases it is a matter of money. Some people can afford an expensive horse, and to ride in clinics, but not necessarily have any real ability, including the ability to improve.
          I saw something similar years ago with people who could afford really expensive guitars, and lessons, but who didn't have any real music talent.
          There is only so far that money can take you.
          Maybe they just don't "get" dressage.
          Founder of the People Who Prefer COTH Over FB Clique
          People Who Hate to Rush to Kill Wildlife Clique!
          "I Sing Silly Songs to My Animals!" Clique

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Roan View Post
            They're looking for that "magic" trainer who can turn them in Anky in one lesson.
            Eileen

            If anyone finds that trainer, could you give me a call? I'd LOVE such a lesson.

            Honestly - as much as it can be frustrating, remember that the average rider is an adult ammie who struggles to balance life. Riding is what they get to do in their limited free time with their limited free $, and many are emotionally invested in their horses and riding. If a clinician makes them feel bad, why should they spend their money and free time feeling bad? There are other clinicians that might also help them improve and make them feel better about it. Many have physical limitations too - bad backs, creaky knees, carpal tunnel, tight muscles, whatever comes from being a middle aged "desk-jockey". They will never be international quality riders - but they do enjoy what they are doing.

            I'm a rider who handles being "kicked in the butt" well - it actually motivates me - get to the point, tell me what to do to improve, don't just coo "good" to me. But I also know riders who DON'T learn that way - they shut down and get defensive. If someone is "kinder and gentler", they respond much better. Everyone learns differently.

            For example - I know of a local rider who is very good - lovely seat, great hands, very talented, but she is also very sensitive (probably why she does well w/ sensitive horses), and needs a clinician who is "sensitive to her sensitivity". Then she excels. And she is truly a GOOD rider.

            Many riders are looking for that clinician they can "click" with, that communicates in a way that gives them lightbulbs moments. I understand your frustration, but also see and hear the other side of it. In any learning environment, some people respond well to certain types of teachers, and others don't.
            www.MysticOakRanch.com Friesian/Warmblood Crosses, the Ultimate Sporthorse
            Director, WTF Registry

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            • #7
              "I don't understand!"

              --I don't understand what you don't understand - it seems you have a very, very good grasp of what's going on.

              --You don't understand what sort of enjoyment they get out of it?

              --YOu don't understand why they don't want to progress?

              --Well, they probably think they're doing very well. And clearly, they're enjoying themselves. As a friend of mine said after a disastrous clinic with a sour, angry horse that dumped her, 'Well, at least the pudding at Bill Knapp's was good'.

              "Define good".

              --Every person draws that line at a different point in the progress of a rider. You're going to define it differently from me. Pony Club has a list of levels and what they feel measures 'competency' at each level - not a lot of other organizations or books have done that (Jane Marshall Dillon, maybe), so I don't think there's a lot of guidelines to follow, so "define good" is just another one of those COH debates just waiting to form.

              --I think of 'good' as can comfortably control a horse in the situations they chose to be in without struggling with the horse. I think of 'great' as successful in competition, or entering into a more subtle level of communication and improvement that a judge or expert in that riding form would recognize easily.

              "...I have people who apparently want to trot 20 m circles and have everyone tell them how great they are...These are grown-ups that have been riding forever on broke horses. What I keep seeing is horses who don't go forward and riders who ride solely off their hands....I see this same group of women go through every new clinician or trainer available....Maybe 3 lessons before they claim ignorance on trainers part and quit coming.

              ....Maybe clinics, etc are social time for them, and they want to show off their new pads and shiny horses?"
              I don't understand!!

              I think you understand very well. You said:

              "I can't change them"

              "Clinics are social time"

              "They want praise"

              "Don't go forward"

              You understand them very, very well.

              I see no lack of understanding.

              Many people ride very irregularly and don't get in shape or improve. Some have poor health, limited time, or other demands on their time. Quite a few simply aren't interested in progressing. Usually, they are very comfortable with what they're doing and they don't mind a bit.

              As with many things, "Only the entire rest of the world minds"

              The key is to become a member of the group that doesn't get that upset about what other people do. People are going to do what they're going to do. You aren't ever going to change them. They are going to do what they are going to do.

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              • #8
                Welcome to the world of horses!
                "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                ---
                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

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                • #9
                  It's better to have a chuckle and forget about it than to let it bother you.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I never tried so hard: spent so much time, money, energy attempting to learn something and remained so bad at as dressage. I don't think I ever really blamed the trainer, coach or clinician OR the horse.....and I never felt like I was even approaching 'average'. But yet I continued on year after year. And the railbirds kept laughing at me and whispering behind my back.

                    You are hosting clinics. your job is to fill the slots. If the clinician is unhappy with the riders, then you can replace them. Other than that.....mind your own knitting

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by feisomeday View Post
                      I never tried so hard: spent so much time, money, energy attempting to learn something and remained so bad at as dressage. I don't think I ever really blamed the trainer, coach or clinician OR the horse.....and I never felt like I was even approaching 'average'. But yet I continued on year after year. And the railbirds kept laughing at me and whispering behind my back.

                      You are hosting clinics. your job is to fill the slots. If the clinician is unhappy with the riders, then you can replace them. Other than that.....mind your own knitting
                      OOF! So from whence cometh your "nom de plume"?

                      Surely you must have learned Something?
                      Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                      Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

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                      • #12
                        wishful thinking on my part

                        I really need to change that name!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          p.s. I know stuff intellectually. I just can't seem to Do stuff very well

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I'm progressing at my own rate, according to what I can afford.
                            I also am one who never blames a trainer or the horse, and dearly wish I could ride more hours on more days - but am doing the best I can with my circumstances.
                            I have progressed - I can name specific goals met and scores attained.
                            It did take me awhile to get past certain mental blocks.
                            I still work on correcting faults I've had for years; as the other poster noted, sometimes the head knowledge is difficult to impart to the body!
                            So I'm not allowed to clinic, lesson or show?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              FEISOMEDAY

                              The more you know, the more you know how much you don't know......you may be learning much more than you think. You are just now more aware of what you want to fix or what's needed to progress. Don't change your name, keep the faith. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

                              It took me 32 years to go from training level to grand prix.... and I am still constantly amazed at how much I have yet to learn. Take it one foot fall at a time. Don't forget to enjoy the journey and remember the toughest challenges often yield the sweetest victories.

                              Winston Churchill was right. "Never, Never, Never, Never Give Up."

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I agree with feisomeday. She has a very good point.

                                I am not really sure everyone is going to progress at a rate observers approve of, or even progress at all. I think she's right - fill the slots.

                                Alot of these people who maybe aren't moving along or moving along that fast, are very nice people. And they may be progressing, just not as quickly as someone would like.

                                I know someone who seemed to have a really bad seat and flop all over the place and provoked constant comments about how crappy she rode at shows and clinics. This went on for years. Even her husband ragged on her.

                                Then one day she got a different horse. She'd been riding a horse with very poor balance, very little ability to come up and use his hind legs properly, despite tons of schooling, professional training for years and years, the horse just couldn't do any better, his conformation and balance just weren't good - a very long heavy neck, very long back, tiny hind quarters, straight hocks - he pulled like a train, and was fighting himself at every step. Her heels were up, shoulders rounded, bouncing all over. We were all sitting around and one girl was dumb enough to comment on it in front of a trainer - the trainer said - 'her horse was a horrible mover, she's a very good rider - you, on the other hand, have no such excuse'....LOL.

                                The two 'worst' riders I know, who provoke the most commentary ringside, actually were struggling with horses that were very, very difficult to sit on and ride - I don't think the greatest riders in the world could have looked nice on those two horses. They got new horses, and oh - where are all the comments? Hmmm. I had ridden both the horses so I knew what they were up against.

                                How horrible people are - really. How horrible. To so blithely put people down when they don't understand what's going on.

                                Sometimes people just can't afford anything else. Despite hysterical backlash here to such comments, there ARE horses that simply - well - make people look like bad riders. Often the horse is doing the best it can too.

                                I think as riders we are going off the deep end and getting way too self absorbed when someone's whole worth, character, personality, value, is measured by whether someone thinks they're progressing in riding enough. Riding isn't THAT important.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I understand there is a limit, but doesn't correct riding improve a horse? Isn't that the point of dressage?
                                  www.specialhorses.org
                                  a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues

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                                  • #18
                                    Certainly 'dressage is about improving' - both horse and rider. That doesn't mean everyone is going to improve the same amount or in the same way, or on the same timetable.

                                    Maybe these 'bad' riders have 'improved' alot.

                                    Many people say it's all rider how the finished picture looks. I say - almost all.

                                    I think most of the basic problems people have - being able to sit the trot, being able to get closer to the saddle, use their core and legs and seat to have a good set of hands - most of the improvement in those areas is the rider's purvey and within his power to fix.

                                    To a point.

                                    Some of these horses are very bad movers - even a very strong professional would only look marginally better on the horse. The horses, alot of them, just have very poor balance, conformation and gaits. No one looks that great on them. I don't expect an amateur to look that great on them. I don't know why anyone WOULD expect that.

                                    People also buy horses they adore and don't want to sell, but they are just very, very inappropriate horses for that individual. They just keep going with the same horse. They may learn alot and pick a more appropriate horse next time, but the picture isn't going to be so pretty in the interim.

                                    I feel very strongly that there's a limit to how well anyone can expect an amateur riding one horse, mostly by himself, with very infrequent lessons, to look. I think a lot of people watching clinics and shows expect way too much of the riders they are watching.

                                    Why expect something a little more realistic? Well, first, because most the riders just aren't that far along - and no - people don't move along according to a set time table. I don't think it really matters how long it takes - as long as they're riding.

                                    And no - I don't really feel an onlooker has a right to judge 'how hard' a person is trying or if they're taking the 'correct' amount of time. I think that's way, way over the top - unless the person blames their horse for everything - then it's an open market, LOL.

                                    I don't really expect the average rider to really balance a horse well, ride their half halts really through, especially when they have a horse that lacks natural balance and is really very hard to ride. That's the type a lot of amateurs have.

                                    Those horses just aren't that easy to make a soft back on (that doesn't come from a rudimentary 'half of a halt' half halt, either). What makes the horse easy to sit on and look elegant on, most people haven't even learned yet.
                                    Last edited by slc2; Jul. 27, 2008, 10:04 AM.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Frankly I am too busy dealing with my own life, horse, and riding to give them a second thought. It used to bother me more when I was JEALOUS....that was the root of this issue with the work ethic. Here I was trying to do everything I could just to do lessons. And now that I have a horse I have trained myself in dressage, that feeling is lessened. It's still there, it's still a struggle to be happy with my arab SOME days. But I love dressage even more, love my horse, getting to more advanced work, and have learned so much. And THAT is what it is all about.

                                      as long as these riders are kind and not creating pain, tension, or harming the horses, I don't think that its our place to judge.
                                      Dressage is an art, and to hold the paintbrush can be enough.

                                      I'm not disagreeing with you, I see this sort of thing all the time. But I also see how much these women love the horses. And at the end of the day it is their money, time, and energy to spend how they want.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by slc2 View Post
                                        The two 'worst' riders I know, who provoke the most commentary ringside, actually were struggling with horses that were very, very difficult to sit on and ride - I don't think the greatest riders in the world could have looked nice on those two horses. They got new horses, and oh - where are all the comments? Hmmm. I had ridden both the horses so I knew what they were up against.
                                        I was riding a horse for a lady a while back. Took him to a dressage show for her - much difficulty with many things, including cantering a 20M circle. The show was as much to get him out and about as it was to be 'graded' on the dressage test. What the judge said did surprise me, though. It was a schooling show and the judge was having a few minute conversation with every competitor (which I LOVE). She stated that the horse was ruining my riding abilities. He was similar - bad confirmation, perpetually unbalanced, etc.

                                        The other thing to consider is that some people do not have time to ride as much and some trainers do not understand that. I even see it with my trainer a bit. With her it is not lack of knowledge about time, but about basic skills. It is a very different game if you start riding when you are 10 compared to 30. Some trainers never had a 9-5 job and/or never married, etc. and do not understand how these factors take away from riding time.

                                        It is not that they are bad trainers, some people just do not have as much of an ability to see and understand outside their world and find it difficult to believe someone would be learning dressage and not setting 2 hours minimum every day to ride/work with their horse. A student may not want to clinic with someone that does not understand the above mentioned limitations.

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