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Better spinoff...WBs vs all non draft crosses

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  • Better spinoff...WBs vs all non draft crosses

    To try to get some realistic input and since there are a lot that ride breeds common to the everyday use such as Arabs and their crosses as well as Quarter horses and their crosses as well as the various other crosses and the many grades horses...just how competitive can these be against an average WB.

    Just how competitive are the WB crosses against the straight WBs? How about WBs against other breeds both pure and crosses.

    And please ladies I am NOT including any draft blood in any of the crosses mentioned above but crosses outside of any draft blood.

    My biggest question since it came up in the qualification thread..Can a non FULL WB ridden by a pro or amateur be able to climb the levels even with the qualifications in place?

  • #2
    We used to have a TB in the barn who was a solid third level - he'd been bought as a YR prospect by a previous owner, but he couldn't collect sufficiently to go higher.

    I've had my butt kicked at training level by a kid on a pinto pony...
    "Adulthood? You're playing with ponies. That is, like, every 9 year old girl's dream. Adulthood?? You're rocking the HELL out of grade 6, girl."

    Comment


    • #3
      Sure. There's very talented individuals in all breeds, and many crosses.

      Honestly I think too much fuss is made over warmbloods -- they certainly have their flaws too. Based on videos I've seen of competitions -- Brentina is the only one that can piaffe worth a damn. But I also think hers is better than any I've seen, including Lipizanners. I think she's in a class by herself with regard to piaffe. She truly makes it look easy.

      And no, I don't have anything against warmbloods. I have a TB/ Hanoverian cross.

      Comment


      • #4
        no "straight" wb

        Originally posted by ~Freedom~ View Post
        To try to get some realistic input and since there are a lot that ride breeds common to the everyday use such as Arabs and their crosses as well as Quarter horses and their crosses as well as the various other crosses and the many grades horses...just how competitive can these be against an average WB.

        Just how competitive are the WB crosses against the straight WBs? How about WBs against other breeds both pure and crosses.

        And please ladies I am NOT including any draft blood in any of the crosses mentioned above but crosses outside of any draft blood.

        My biggest question since it came up in the qualification thread..Can a non FULL WB ridden by a pro or amateur be able to climb the levels even with the qualifications in place?
        uh, there aren't any "straight WBs", well they are 'straight", even the geldings, but they aren't purebred. altho Trakehners are supposed to be a breed, all us others are registries with lots of tb and arab blood, and trakehners are also full of tb and arab, more arab than many other registries. If you mean WB vs. draught crosses that are in america called wbs, like the aws, then they are not the same as the european lines. but 1/2 tb and 1/2 wbs are about the same as "straight" registry wbs.
        Just check out the bloodlines of the big olympic horses and see just how much tb and arab blood is there, you'll be amazed.
        Last edited by cloudyandcallie; Jul. 17, 2008, 11:29 PM. Reason: add

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
          uh, there aren't any "straight WBs", well they are 'straight", even the geldings, but they aren't purebred. altho Trakehners are supposed to be a breed, all us others are registries with lots of tb and arab blood, and takehners are also full of tb and arab, more arab than many other registries. If you mean WB vs. draught crosses that are in america called wbs, like the aws, then they are not the same as the european lines.
          Just check out the bloodlines of the big olympic horses and see just how much tb and arab blood is there, you'll be amazed.
          LOL I realize that and I was trying to separate the crossbreds that are done outside the registry compared to what has been infused and approved within each registry.

          Comment


          • #6
            ok

            yeah, I just think our registries (we are hessen in german registry, none here) are for performance and location, not for purebreds. I think any horse who can perform is great, and buying bloodlines helps. I love the ottbs, all that inbreeding, and the wbs, all that crossbreeding with the inbred tbs.
            but the wbs can jump in stadium jumping, wouldn't want to try to event with those bodies, and the wbs have those floating trots. but then the tbs have all that intelligence.
            cloudy is 47% tb, 10% arab, 100% pita! But he is straight, lol, still thinks he is a stud, poor boy.

            Comment


            • #7
              I think I understand what you are asking- How do warmbloods versus non-warmbloods compare in the sport of dressage?

              Is that correct?

              If that is the question it is very easy to answer but let me clarify- the real rating is at the FEI level, not at training level- so hear is my answer - go to this link from the world breeding federation----

              http://www.wbfsh.com/files/Dressage%...0June%2008.pdf


              they track all the performance indicators for all recognized breeds: You will see that Hanoverians ranked #1, Dutch ranked #2, Danish ranked #3, Oldenburg ranked #4, Swedish #5, Westphalian ranked #6. HOlsteiner #7.

              I think the answer is pretty clear, don't you? I do not see any registered Arabs or Quarter Horses competing at the FEI levels and being ranked consisently by the WBF. Would you agree??

              Laura

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ~Freedom~ View Post
                My biggest question since it came up in the qualification thread..Can a non FULL WB ridden by a pro or amateur be able to climb the levels even with the qualifications in place?
                Quite often TBs are approved for breeding and so there are "warmbloods" that are half TB, or is that not what you meant? (Ooops, just saw that this was already said....)

                I don't know how you feel about andalusians because I do not, personally feel that they can be lumped in with the warmbloods, but they're my number one choice if only a) I could afford a quality one and b) they regularly came in size 17+h. Though, I have ridden some ROUND andies that took up my long leg quite nicely.
                Phyxius Photos.com - Equine Photographer in Maryland

                Comment


                • #9
                  Lendon Gray rode a couple of TB/ Connemara crosses and did pretty well as I recall....

                  Let's face it, one of the reasons those breeds dominate so much is that a rider looking to ride at the FEI level isn't likely to look at other breeds, yet individuals in probably every light breed exist that can do excellent dressage. 20 years ago I knew a pony, registered QH, 14.1 hands, BEAUTIFUL mover in all three gaits, could easily jump 4'. Didn't look a thing like a QH. Rich kid whose parents owned the farm was riding her training level. The horse was capable of so much more but she did have a very good life living out on the farm. Arabian, also a little over 14 hands, lovely in all three gaits, steady mind... The best trot I've seen of any horse was an OTTB mare -- she just floated across the ground. Amazing. So those horses are out there but the stars all have to align.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I just started riding a really neat little arabian/saddle bred mare. She really is super free in the shoulder and nice hock action. I dont know how far she will go, but I will def. keep everyone updates. She has a brain and very rideable, so....... who knows, time will tell.
                    www.spindletopfarm.net
                    Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
                    "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      One girl in Lewin's training barn just sold a TB who was, I believe, PSG/I1.

                      One of the riders in my barn lost a Morgan last year who was very competitive at PSG. She also has an Andalusian (or is he Lusitano? Damn, now I forgot) stallion that she's bringing along.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Another important list

                        Here are the top Dressage performance horses in the world, this is the most current performance list:

                        http://www.wbfsh.com/files/Dressage%...0June%2008.pdf

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ltw View Post
                          Here are the top Dressage performance horses in the world, this is the most current performance list:

                          http://www.wbfsh.com/files/Dressage%...0June%2008.pdf
                          That's was interesting! Thanks for posting. The top three are Hanoverians. My personal favorite.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Originally posted by FancyFree View Post
                            That's was interesting! Thanks for posting. The top three are Hanoverians. My personal favorite.
                            They are mine as well. My own is Hanoverian cross.

                            So with the qualifications that may be in place in 2009 do they favor the crosses or not?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hanoverians (and Hanoverian crosses) are the best.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Well I wrote an article that is going to be published in the Paisley Pony (upcoming issue). It lists all of the known (through USDF database) welsh that have competed at third level or above successfully. The list is amazingly long and primarily made up of cobs - section C & D though there are a handful of Bs and half-breds. When you consider the number of welsh cobs in this country as compared to the number of warmbloods, the statistics of competitive mounts shorter in stature who are successful in climbing the levels is not too shabby. I'm sure there are many who were overlooked due to recording error/lack of breed recognition. A few in my article who are listed went to Intermediate and Grand prix. I am hoping to debut at Prix St. George with mine in late fall if everything continues to go according to plan.

                                I earned my bronze, all scores, on my Arab who was I trained on my own.
                                Ranch of Last Resort

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  That's was interesting! Thanks for posting. The top three are Hanoverians. My personal favorite.

                                  Mine too They've been number one breed on that list for over a decade (and usually at the top for jumping too). It's no accident.

                                  On the other hand, I think there are lots of "non traditional" breeds , as well as some Baroque breeds that can hold their own in some serious competition. Friesians are starting to do fairly well, especially considering the small numbers (have been long listed ect). But, when it all comes down to it, you compare the BEST example of a wb bred for dressage ie like a Brentina and compare it to ANY other horse..for sheer dressage talent/ability, you just cannot beat the wb IMHO.
                                  www.svhanoverians.com

                                  "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by ~Freedom~ View Post
                                    To try to get some realistic input and since there are a lot that ride breeds common to the everyday use such as Arabs and their crosses as well as Quarter horses and their crosses as well as the various other crosses and the many grades horses...just how competitive can these be against an average WB.

                                    Just how competitive are the WB crosses against the straight WBs? How about WBs against other breeds both pure and crosses.

                                    And please ladies I am NOT including any draft blood in any of the crosses mentioned above but crosses outside of any draft blood.

                                    My biggest question since it came up in the qualification thread..Can a non FULL WB ridden by a pro or amateur be able to climb the levels even with the qualifications in place?
                                    haha, when my teddy aki shetland ponyx sec Awelshall at 10.2hhs was in the pony club, with a lessonee 1st time in
                                    for both, aki juniors against seniors intercamp thing him being the smallest won the dressage
                                    against all the biggests the largest being 16.3hh came home with a rather large thorphy

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I think WBFSH only lists the breeds they include in their association, which is most (not all) Warmblood registries and some of the Spanish registries. They don't recognize many breeds, including Friesians, Morgans, ANY of the US Stock breeds, etc.

                                      If you want to see how different breeds stack up in dressage in the U.S., probably the best source is the annual USDF Yearbook. Although many of the "crosses" are registered as PHR or AWS, so even that isn't going to give you the full picture.

                                      Are other breeds beating the Warmbloods? Yes. I show here in California, a very competitive circuit, and have seen Arabians, Morgans, Andalusians all in the ribbons at big shows. Last weekend, I showed my own Friesian/Warmblood cross stallion at 3rd level (my 1st time!), and we won the 3rd level classes AND were AA reserve high point for the day (and there were mostly Warmbloods at all the levels at that show).

                                      It is possible to win and to meet qualifying requirements with a non-Warmblood, or a non-traditional cross. But you do need a horse with three decent gaits (they don't have to be flamboyant, but they need to be pure and free and with the reach to do medium work), and you do need to be a good enough rider to get the best from your horse (isn't that the case much of the time?). If you have a small moving, downhill Quarterhorse, you can ride and show dressage, but you may not get the scores. If you have a decent moving Quarterhorse, you can do it. Same with other breeds - it isn't the breed, it is the individual horse (and rider) that needs to be assessed.

                                      A few examples that are fun to hear about.
                                      -A few years ago, at the CDS Junior Championships, one of my young Friesian crosses was reserve champion with a junior rider at 1st level, and the champion was on an Appaloosa! Most of the rest of the placings were Warmbloods, but top two were NOT! Further up the ranks, I think the 4th level champion was riding a Friesian that year.

                                      -At a recent USDF FEI Symposium, one of the demo horses was a PMU rescue - a draft/QH/Who knows what else cross who was doing GP and had a very nice passage!

                                      -Although he didn't quite make it to the team, one of the short listed horses for our team was an Andalusian (Rociero). He's a favorite around here because he's a "local boy". And of course, we all remember Invasor! There are many other examples, I'm just quoting a few that I had local experience with.

                                      Most trainers ride Warmbloods - as a result, we see mostly Warmbloods in the top rankings. But, look what happens when a talented rider picks a different breed? Look at what Sabine did with the Proud Meadow's Friesians, or look at Iron Springs. Look at Rociero. Pull out the USDF Yearbooks and see what is happening - there was a time when all you saw was Warmbloods. That is starting to shift. Sure, it is still MOSTLY Warmbloods - but other breeds are making inroads.

                                      If you don't have a Warmblood, don't dispair - but make an honest assessment of your horse (and your riding abilities, of course). Does your horse have the conformation and gaits to be COMFORTABLE doing collected work? If not, you won't do your horse or yourself any favors by trying to compete at the mid levels. You can still use dressage to improve your horse's rideability, but competing will just frustrate the both of you.
                                      www.MysticOakRanch.com Friesian/Warmblood Crosses, the Ultimate Sporthorse
                                      Director, WTF Registry

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by ~Freedom~ View Post
                                        To try to get some realistic input and since there are a lot that ride breeds common to the everyday use such as Arabs and their crosses as well as Quarter horses and their crosses as well as the various other crosses and the many grades horses...just how competitive can these be against an average WB.

                                        Just how competitive are the WB crosses against the straight WBs? How about WBs against other breeds both pure and crosses.

                                        And please ladies I am NOT including any draft blood in any of the crosses mentioned above but crosses outside of any draft blood.

                                        My biggest question since it came up in the qualification thread..Can a non FULL WB ridden by a pro or amateur be able to climb the levels even with the qualifications in place?
                                        You know, competitive dressage has been around alot longer than WBs. Before that people rode TBs or TB crosses for the most part....sometimes horses where nobody had a clue about their lineage (for you young folks out there, it has only become recently that every horse has to be registered and have "papers.").

                                        As always, lot more depends on the rider than the horse and you will never convince me otherwise. Good riders make good horses, great riders make great horses.

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