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Parelli, Buck others? Schultheis, Zeilinger others? And Competition Dressage . . .

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  • Parelli, Buck others? Schultheis, Zeilinger others? And Competition Dressage . . .

    I know this is not a popular topic here - Parelli or any of the NH folks really.

    Is there anyone out there who can speak to how they may have found useful aspects to incorporate in their competitive Dressage? I would prefer a PM - to avoid the firestorm, but that is really up to you...
    Last edited by fatorangehorse; Jan. 16, 2012, 08:28 PM. Reason: topic migrated

  • #2
    Many of their techniques are helpful for dealing with spooky horses and loading horses (Monty Roberts)...I like him a lot.

    Some use language like disengaging the hind end...which was described by the old classical horsemen like DeCarpentry and Baucher as something like rotation of the hindquarters and shoulders (I don't remember), but a lot of what they describe in "new" language is old technique...some of it is useful in order to sell equipment.

    I use a lot of the Roberts, Brannaman, Lyons, Tom Dorrance teachings to work with young horses on the ground..but "dressage" has been a system forever..I like to keep an open mind...but try to stay away from the gimicky stuff. Cha ching, cha ching, cha ching.

    I like that most of them subscribe to non-violent means to train.

    Just my humble 2 cents.

    Comment


    • #3
      Everything the above poster said. ^^ Also, I find that my horse is a little more interested in what i have to 'say' in general/all aspects if riding. Any gtound work done whether you consider it NH or just 'ground work', its all the same, seems to help your horse be more willing and listening to you as a rider. I personally feel more connected and more respect.

      Comment


      • #4
        All of the hindquarter and forquarter yeilds on the ground really carry over to the bending and lateral work under saddle...you get them soft on the ground, and you have a horse that moves softly off of your leg under saddle :-)

        Comment


        • #5
          Agree with the above posters...I worked with Buck Brannaman when I lived in Montana, and I found that the work helped not only the horse, but me too. Yep, the ground work can be fantastic in getting the horse to unlock and yield (especially laterally). I use this on rainy/crappy days when the horses have been stuck in their stalls...I'll play with ground work and see how much softness and how big of a step I can get. For me, it helped to see how the timing of the cue matters so much...I can SEE the hind foot lifting off the ground...I can SEE the outside fore lifting and reaching out. Under saddle, I have a much better perception of what the feet are doing under me and how to time my aids accordingly.

          Comment


          • #6
            The funny thing about NH is that NONE of it is anything new. The techniques have been used by horsemen long before anyone invented the term. My mother was a fabulous "colt breaker" in her day. She used ropes to handle feet and legs, sacked out the youngsters, taught them to yield rump or shoulder, all the things the NHers do.

            We do extensive ground work with the youngsters, it makes life easier to have a respectful horse on the ground. A respectful horse develops into a confident horse. We expose them to A LOT of questions while at the same time making it easy for the horse to understand and find the answers.

            My gripe with the modern day NHers is that so much of it turns a horse into a dull, lifeless, resentful, dolt. And several "games" will make it very hard when you get to the point of working a horse in hand.

            I think if you incorporate the elements of NH that make sense and keep in mind that you are developing a RIDING horse, you will have a good result.
            Patty
            www.rivervalefarm.com
            Follow us on facebook - https://www.facebook.com/pages/River...ref=ts&fref=ts

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by NoDQhere View Post
              The funny thing about NH is that NONE of it is anything new.
              Why is that funny? Only the shysters claim it's anything new. What IS new is giving it exposure to the general new-to-horses audience, rather than keeping it a secret of the strong, silent types (that is said entirely with tongue in cheek)

              My gripe with the modern day NHers is that so much of it turns a horse into a dull, lifeless, resentful, dolt. And several "games" will make it very hard when you get to the point of working a horse in hand.

              I think if you incorporate the elements of NH that make sense and keep in mind that you are developing a RIDING horse, you will have a good result.
              All of it depends on the handler recognizing an appropriate place to stop asking. The problem with turning it into a "game" is that the inexperienced beginner wants to continue to play the game until *they* are good at it, which is generally long after the horse is totally checked out. Defeats the whole purpose. Definitely have to keep in mind that your are doing it to develop the horse, not to teach yourself, nor to spend quality time, nor, god forbid, to "bond" with your horse.
              "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

              Spay and neuter. Please.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by monstrpony View Post
                Why is that funny? Only the shysters claim it's anything new. What IS new is giving it exposure to the general new-to-horses audience, rather than keeping it a secret of the strong, silent types (that is said entirely with tongue in cheek)



                All of it depends on the handler recognizing an appropriate place to stop asking. The problem with turning it into a "game" is that the inexperienced beginner wants to continue to play the game until *they* are good at it, which is generally long after the horse is totally checked out. Defeats the whole purpose. Definitely have to keep in mind that your are doing it to develop the horse, not to teach yourself, nor to spend quality time, nor, god forbid, to "bond" with your horse.
                Have to agree with you here. But therein lies the problem. Much "Natural Horsemanship" is being sold to the beginner as "the" solution to their problems with their horse.
                Patty
                www.rivervalefarm.com
                Follow us on facebook - https://www.facebook.com/pages/River...ref=ts&fref=ts

                Comment


                • #9
                  There are several problems when talking about Parelli system and dresssage.

                  How many here remember the Parellis spending DECADES making fun of Dressage riding and riders?
                  It was their spiel to make people laugh at their demonstrations.
                  At times, their teasing was a bit less than kind, if not right down insulting to a whole equestrian discipline.

                  For some strange reason, they lately "got religion" and decided Dressage is now what they want to do.
                  At least they got a true dressage trainer to help, but for some reason, he doesn't seem to be helping much, for what comes out of the Parelli system as "Dressage".
                  Why?
                  Dressage is a very specific way to train, from the basics to eventually having a horse that performs a certain, very specific way.

                  The problem is when someone that has no, zip, zero idea of what the ultimate goal is, how to train for it, what to do to get there, then tries to make up a whole invented world about it and call that "Dresasge".
                  Even with help from a properly trained instructor.

                  The Parelli take on so much that is standard in Dressage seems a bit like a blind person describing an elephant by touch, way off the mark, see "fluidity", "monkey riding" and such other wonderful examples.

                  Does some of what most horsemen have always done, to help a horse be more flexible and responsive, that is also part of some the Parelli system teaches help anyone handling and riding horses in any discipline?
                  Yes, of course.

                  Is that what Dressage as a discipline is?
                  No, there is so much more to Dressage, obviously and that is where some of what the Parelli system teaches, being evidently completely ignorant about dressage, just misses.

                  Why would you put bungies and a tail set on a dressage prospect and teach it to move like a saddlebred?

                  Why would anyone work thru the Parelli discombobulated, cruising around, imprecise and clueless way of going their horses show, along with many resistences here and there, then expect to have a horse that works correctly in the standard Dressage way?

                  Using Parelli training for Dressage training is using the wrong tool for the task, here a horse moving and responding as a Dressage horse is asked to perform.

                  Can anyone use this or that from the Parelli system to get their horse to do this or that better while handling them?
                  Sure, just as they can if they give the same a different label and more important, KNOW the difference and what is applicable and what not.

                  The Parelli system is based on some handling techniques that become rough quickly and gives you resistant horses.
                  That can be seen as the antithesis of what Dressage training is all about.
                  Dressage training is about working towards balance and suppleness and a non-resistent horse, while moving in a specific way.

                  Training horses is about more than sitting there and letting horses cruise around.
                  It involves understanding concepts, that will bring you to your goals, whatever those are.
                  The Parelli system seems to be in general about working with horses with no specific, traditional goals in the ways we use our horses.
                  That is fine of course, but not applicable to disciplines as we train for today, like Dressage is.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bluey View Post


                    ... techniques that become rough quickly and gives you resistant horses.
                    I've seen a whole lot of that in the 'real' dressage world.
                    We're spending our money on horses and bourbon. The rest we're just wasting.
                    www.dleestudio.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DLee View Post
                      I've seen a whole lot of that in the 'real' dressage world.
                      That is true.
                      The difference, in Dressage training, bad training is not standard.
                      It is so, as you can see, in the Parelli "instructional" training videos.

                      Bad training is bad training any place.
                      When that is part of your instructional videos, well ...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Being from a barn that's had several big name NH trainers come through it, I'd say that I havnt found a TON of things to incorporate.

                        Like moving (disengaging) the hind? Ive found WAY more control in an animal by moving the shoulders over and having control of that shoulder. Keeping them respecting your space comes from their front.

                        Ive found almost NO value in the many many roll backs, or the turn into me idea while lunging.

                        I do full arena lunging and incorporate the idea by having a horse basically do circles into me but not just stop turn and face me.

                        Round penning to death was NOT helpful with a horse that needed confidence IMO Also with the backing the horse off while shaking the rope at him/her. Calmly asking the horse to back then praise, then shoulders away (teach them almost a pivot on the haunches) helped with space issues and respect far more than teaching a high headed pushy horse to raise its head higher. Has anyone seen a mare go after an NH trainer with her fronts? I have.

                        The idea is sound in theory but not uniform to every horse and variations are needed IMO. Some horses dont care if they have to work "harder" and wont make better "decisions" because you make them sweat. Some just need good sound consistency and direction.

                        Ive been to many clinics, know the lingo. I can tell you Ive used maybe a tiny bit for trailering (after the shoulder work).
                        ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
                        http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by NoDQhere View Post
                          Have to agree with you here. But therein lies the problem. Much "Natural Horsemanship" is being sold to the beginner as "the" solution to their problems with their horse.
                          And that is the problem I have with it. Not the people who are practicing it correctly and know what they're doing, but the morons who don't and think they do.

                          The one thing I like about NH, that I think all people should fully understand, is the emphasis on body language. I think it is often overlooked.

                          ETA: BTW, I have practiced NH. For several years. I stopped because it caused more issues than it helped.
                          Rebel Without Cash!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            My recent ventures into NH went like this:

                            I'm working with my 2 year old newly gelded QH "project"...so, I carried my lunge whip into the round pen and put it in the middle (just in case, because he had been studly and wanting to leap and rear right in front of me earlier).. I then proceeded with join-up with a long coiled rope, etc., and he was wonderful..after he did all the "signs"..he approached me with his head down, licking and chewing. I was so proud..then, he came and stood next to me, put his head down, picked up the lunge whip in his mouth and walked off! Brat!

                            Next, came the tarp experience. I put a humungous blue tarp crumpled up in the middle of the arena and went outside and sat down to watch what he did. He walked over, picked up his "pet" stick (he has a big stick he likes to carry around)...and proceeded to try to put the stick on top of the tarp. Then he climbed into the crumpled tarp and tried to drag it under his belly with his front feet, while sticking his head down into it and grabbing it.

                            Both incidents were videoed. LOL

                            Sigh. He's so abused.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              You gotta love creative young horses at play!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by NoDQhere View Post

                                My gripe with the modern day NHers is that so much of it turns a horse into a dull, lifeless, resentful, dolt. And several "games" will make it very hard when you get to the point of working a horse in hand.
                                I think this quote above is one of my biggest gripes with NH. My husband is relatively new to horses (3 years now) and his initial interest in horses was sparked by watching some of the NH trainers on RFD. This quickly became his horse "religion." I came up in the horse world with a very traditional and classical dressage mentor. I've started many horses under saddle under the guidance of said mentor (albeit many, many years ago) and while there are vague similarities, it seems like apples and oranges to me.

                                It bothers me how dull and lifeless the NH tend to want horses to be. I want a confident, willing partner as much as the next person, but I don't think it's a big deal if my horse spooks at a tarp blowing in the wind. I don't feel the need to "desensitize" my horse to the point where he becomes a lifeless zombie. One of the NH trainers is the worst for this...I won't say names...but his horses seem like robots to me. It makes me very sad, in all candor. I don't see why I have to obsess about a horse "respecting my space." I don't have to take huge insult if my horse takes a step towards me without my 'invitation.' I think the NH stuff is rooted in some very solid, time tested horsemanship. But it has been bastardized by those who sell it in a box with specific halters and leads and gimmicky equipment. )I've been using web halters ALL MY LIFE and have never felt any pressing need to have a rope halter). I just don't get the mentality that "you have to use this halter and 12 ft lead if you want your horse to be your partner." Drives me nutso!!

                                All that said, I think you can get some really great stuff from some of the NH folks out there. I have learned a lot from people like Buck Brannaman and Mark Rashid. I personally steer clear of the ones who have built a marketing empire. And as with anyone, I take what makes sense to me and I leave what doesn't.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I have incorporated Parelli for years as part of training. If you know what you are doing, you create a horse that is extremely confident, and sensitive, all at the same time, before you even think about climbing on board. Now I'm talking about building the foundation, excluding the riding part.

                                  The riding part is, well, shall I say, leave a lot for improvement? So basically, if you are a good rider, skip their riding parts, unless your horse is green, and you are doing baby stuff just for kick, which can be fun. Remember, that program (Parelli), especially the riding piece, is geared toward folks who have on idea how to ride.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by fairtheewell View Post
                                    Many of their techniques are helpful for dealing with spooky horses and loading horses (Monty Roberts)...I like him a lot.

                                    Some use language like disengaging the hind end...which was described by the old classical horsemen like DeCarpentry and Baucher as something like rotation of the hindquarters and shoulders (I don't remember), but a lot of what they describe in "new" language is old technique...some of it is useful in order to sell equipment.

                                    I use a lot of the Roberts, Brannaman, Lyons, Tom Dorrance teachings to work with young horses on the ground..but "dressage" has been a system forever..I like to keep an open mind...but try to stay away from the gimicky stuff. Cha ching, cha ching, cha ching.

                                    I like that most of them subscribe to non-violent means to train.

                                    Just my humble 2 cents.
                                    This^

                                    I rely on these techniques to hand walk, lunge, ground drive, do work in hand, and trailer load my huge 17.2 hand youngster. Without them I would have no respect from him and would not be able to enjoy him. He is an opportunist so I give him regular "drills" to make sure he doesn't:
                                    - push his shoulder into me while leading him,
                                    - try to "play nip" me (nipping is biting and no biting is ever tolerated),
                                    - step into me while on the cross ties,
                                    - ask why before trailer loading!!
                                    - move whle I'm mounting him from the block
                                    - not respect my lightest aides without an argument

                                    Keeping him well behaved is also respectful to my trainer who rides him twice a week.

                                    I could go on and on

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by fatorangehorse View Post
                                      I know this is not a popular topic here - Parelli or any of the NH folks really.

                                      Is there anyone out there who can speak to how they may have found useful aspects to incorporate in their competitive Dressage? I would prefer a PM - to avoid the firestorm, but that is really up to you...
                                      I recommend you google Karen Rolf. You'll find what you're looking for among people who study with her.
                                      I have a Fjord! Life With Oden

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by fatorangehorse View Post
                                        I know this is not a popular topic here - Parelli or any of the NH folks really.

                                        Is there anyone out there who can speak to how they may have found useful aspects to incorporate in their competitive Dressage? I would prefer a PM - to avoid the firestorm, but that is really up to you...
                                        I do not compete dressage however it is an important part of my training program for any horse regardless of discipline but especially my jumpers.

                                        I LOVE NH and what PNH has taught me, specifically - how it enables me to establish a way of harmoniously communicating with horses, how it enables me to develop horses into better animals physically, mentally, emotionally, and how it serves as a solid foundation from which to bounce off of into whichever discipline. It enables me to capture a horse's interest - the horses I work with love to work with me and offer a lot of effort, willingness, and 'suggestions' (even if they were sour or possessed little work ethic prior), which greatly enables training.

                                        As it pertains to dressage specifically, I find having a harmonious means of communicating with a horse and developing the horse to be calmer, less reactive, more confident allows for suppleness and relaxation - the foundation of the training scale. Suppleness and relaxation allows for the development of rhythm. Respect on the ground carries over to respect in the saddle, which allows for forward and the development of impulsion and thrust from behind. With this, progression up the training scale comes naturally
                                        ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
                                        ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

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